Any one have there B-cat?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toby

Although what you saying is right about concealment it isn't making a difference, They still give pistols to people with licence's whats stopping them hiding it? Opening to hunting is just making use of them, some people like hunting not just shooting paper. once again you seem to miss that people hunt with bows when rifles are far more better suited.Pistol hunting will just become another style of hunting. It is the person not the gun doing the damage. Don't blame tools for mans failure.

---

By allowing them to be used for hunting will just attract a lot of undesirable people wanting them to go blazing around after goats in the bush. There is no need for them in hunting when we have rifles, fact. It would also give people an excuse to be carrying a pistol in their vehicle or while deer stalking, "I was just going hunting".

By restricting them to range use it means if you are really passionate about them you can still go shoot with them.

Bows cannot hold 17 arrows and be fired on semi auto one handed, all while being able to be slipped into your waistline where no one can see it.

Just because they are stopping people hunt with them doesn't mean someone isn't going to get one and go on a rampage.

Saying its fact that there is no need for them in hunting is like saying no need to hunt cause you can buy meat at a super market.

If people are found legit from the police to use a pistol then why stop them hunting? Its something they want to do, let em. they have a licence which im not sure but dont think it is easy to get so I dont think many weird people will get one.

Also a pistol will be great for pig hunting when you have dogs, there have been times where we get sick of carrying a rifle through thick bush.

I think savage is assuming that if people have a legit reason to have a pistol outside of a range they will carry them regularly for personal defense. I don't know about anybody else but just because I can, I don't carry a long gun around in my vehicle, or leave one loaded beside my bed. It won't matter if it attracts dodgy people, as they will still get vetted out at the club level. I think the majority of endorsement holders are not stupid enough to CCW. Hunting and CCW are two different things. I mean really if I carted a long gun around for self defense I could just tell the cop I'm going to the range or something.

Semi auto pistols that hold 17 rounds are much more effective when fired with two hands. :P
The majority of pistols that end up slipped in an offenders waistline where no one can see are cut down 22lr rifles and shotguns.
And I would hope undesirable people would be vetted and unable to get a license in the first place.
Anyway this is all hypothetical. I'm referring to a "what if" situation with licensed and trained sportsmen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nzgunner

Semi auto pistols that hold 17 rounds are much more effective when fired with two hands. :P
The majority of pistols that end up slipped in an offenders waistline where no one can see are cut down 22lr rifles and shotguns.
And I would hope undesirable people would be vetted and unable to get a license in the first place.
Anyway this is all hypothetical. I'm referring to a "what if" situation with licensed and trained sportsmen.

---

+1 I don't see it as likely but maybe it could be something pistol shooters could work towards. I used a Browning Buckmark .22lr and a S&W 686 .357 once. Both were wickedly accurate when I had my shit together. Perfectly suitable for close range hunting. Would be less of a burden to carry too. Don't get me wrong I am a dyed in the wool rifle guy though. But they definatley hold merit as hunting arms.

You both make very good points.

There are risks involved with letting them be used in the public eye for hunting eg being visible in public areas, in vehicles more. These are risks that have no real need to be taken as we already have better, safer tools for the job.

I agree that 99% of people with the endorsement would be fine using them for hunting as they're in general, more responsible than the average person.

These are probably the most dangerous weapon you can get due to its size, so there needs to be some very strict rules in place.

I would love to get a pistol and blast away with it. But I hate the idea of getting a civilian to tell the Police I'm good enough to have a licence. And if I did get one I would be as frustrated as hell that I couldn't go for a blast on the farm with it.

I do agree with most of your points and can certainly see your side of it. But I can see it from the other side to.

PNZ doesnt want it....
Hell you cant even go to the range on your own and most ranges you cant even shoot at unless an official club night

Can you explain it from the other point a little more please

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toby

Can you explain it from the other point a little more please

---

By letting pistols be used for hunting it will make them easier to be stolen, lost or obtained by undesirable people.

Imagine you were a Police officer and you get called to a disorder job and get there and there are some criminals facing off against each other, you put on a TASER just in case but not a glock because there is no sign of weapons. When speaking to them one pulls a pistol out, you're fucked.

Doing a search warrants, pistols can be hidden lots more places.

You pull over a car and the person has a pistol in his lap and shoots you without warning, happens in the USA often. You can see if they are holding a rifle as you approach them.

Imagine how Police would feel if a change in rules like this happened that had a very real chance of making their job more dangerous for the sake of a few people wanting to shoot animals with a pistol.

Not sure that came out how I wanted it to.

I think that would have more to do with police standard operating procedures more than anything else. There have been cases where police have knocked on a door and been faced by somebody with a long gun. I think a rifle poses far more risk to your safety than a handgun, just by pure physics it will do a lot more damage. You gotta remember our cops are not routinely armed or wearing ballistic protection anyway - if they pull somebody over and they jump out with a rifle or shotty, they're in the shit. But anyway that isn't the point. I personally think that if B catters got to shoot on the farm or in the bush or what ever, the sky wouldn't fall.

Yes but if criminals had pistols they would be more likely to carry firearms because of the ease and conceal-ability. Especially in vehicles or on the street. The criminals have the advantage in that the Police can only react.

The vest Police wear is designed to stop 9mm.

The sky might not fall but is it worth the risk so you can go shoot some animals with pistols because you enjoy it? Would you explain this to the widow and kids left behind of an officer or victim killed with a pistol?

Thank you for that, I did help me see it a lot clearer from your side.

But still, Criminals will get pistols without licences anyway. Their criminals they don't care about the law.

Restricting people hunting with them legally isn't the best solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savage1

Yes but if criminals had pistols they would be more likely to carry firearms because of the ease and conceal-ability. Especially in vehicles or on the street. The criminals have the advantage in that the Police can only react.

The vest Police wear is designed to stop 9mm.

The sky might not fall but is it worth the risk so you can go shoot some animals with pistols because you enjoy it? Would you explain this to the widow and kids left behind of an officer or victim killed with a pistol?

---

How does that relate to an endorsement holder hunting? Can't remember the last time one of them shot a cop

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savage1

By allowing them to be used for hunting will just attract a lot of undesirable people What is Hunting to be an exclusive sport now! wanting them to go blazing around after goats in the bush. There is no need for them in hunting when we have rifles, fact BullShit!. It would also give people an excuse to be carrying a pistol in their vehicle or while deer stalking, "I was just going hunting".

By restricting them to range use it means if you are really passionate about them you can still go shoot with them.

Bows cannot hold 17 arrows and be fired on semi auto one handed, all while being able to be slipped into your waistline where no one can see it.Rifles can do this too

---

Savage I think youv'e missed the point altogether.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spanners

PNZ doesnt want it....
Hell you cant even go to the range on your own and most ranges you cant even shoot at unless an official club night

---

Your on to it Spanners.

We told PNZ to shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

Our Club is one of a growing number of pistol clubs in NZ that are NOT affiliated to PNZ and certainly dont play by their rules.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savage1

Yes but if criminals had pistols they would be more likely to carry firearms because of the ease and conceal-ability. Especially in vehicles or on the street. The criminals have the advantage in that the Police can only react.

The vest Police wear is designed to stop 9mm.

The sky might not fall but is it worth the risk so you can go shoot some animals with pistols because you enjoy it? Would you explain this to the widow and kids left behind of an officer or victim killed with a pistol?

---

I think you have gone way off on a tangent there savage. There is already an "undesireable" section of society that is armed and there is nothing that can be done about it, and believe it or not they already have access to handguns. This isnt about the criminal fraternity and them being armed, this is about endorsed lisence holders and them hunting with B's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savage1

Yes but if criminals had pistols they would be more likely to carry firearms because of the ease and conceal-ability. Especially in vehicles or on the street. The criminals have the advantage in that the Police can only react.

The vest Police wear is designed to stop 9mm.

The sky might not fall but is it worth the risk so you can go shoot some animals with pistols because you enjoy it? Would you explain this to the widow and kids left behind of an officer or victim killed with a pistol?

---

Savage
Criminals in NZ already have illeagle pistols And Rifles and other firearms in their posession.
Criminals are criminals .......... They have made a consious decision to live outside of the law hence the 1%er symbol.
Criminals will always have illeagle pistols and other firearms in their posession because they are criminals.
Criminal will always seek way of obtaining illeagl firearms.

Honest Law abiding NZ citizens should not be punished or made to pay for any criminals activity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by P38

Your on to it Spanners.

We told PNZ to shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

Our Club is one of a growing number of pistol clubs in NZ that are NOT affiliated to PNZ and certainly dont play by their rules.

---

True? When I mentioned at our service club meeting that we should try become recognized as an independent pistol club the idea got shot down. It was said that the cops were making all non pnz affiliated clubs get in line and affiliate or face closure. The higher ups in our club didn't want to rock the boat on the issue. I thought it would be cool to set up pistol COF's and mix them in with our service rifle COF's to make it more interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beavis

True? When I mentioned at our service club meeting that we should try become recognized as an independent pistol club the idea got shot down. It was said that the cops were making all non pnz affiliated clubs get in line and affiliate or face closure. The higher ups in our club didn't want to rock the boat on the issue. I thought it would be cool to set up pistol COF's and mix them in with our service rifle COF's to make it more interesting.

---

Yeah I heard that too.

It's all Bullshit put out by PNZ because they fear loosing control.

It's PNZ that wants this not the Police.

I know of three clubs in the North Island that have started up that are not affiliated with PNZ.

There has never been a requirement to be affiliated with PNZ..... it is just easier at the beginning thats all.

Form an incorporated society whos aims are to provide it's members with and promote the safe handling and competitions for pistol shooting and your away.

Yea that was my thinking. There is nothing expressed in law saying you HAVE to affiliate with PNZ, it is just easier because of the memorandum of understanding or whatever it is called. I can't actually find the minimum attendance thing or anything like that in the act either

P38 you are a perfect example of someone who doesn't give a shit about anyone but yourself.

Hunting won't attract undesirable people, using a pistol unsupervised will.
Tell me where pistols are needed in hunting?
You can't fire pull a rifle out of your waistband and fire one handed effectively with 17 rounds.

You say why punish law abiding citizens for what criminals do, why punish enforcement officers and society because you want to go shoot animals in the bush with a pistol instead of a rifle?

I'm not saying criminals don't already have handguns, but why make it easier for them by allowing people to use pistols in the public eye?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savage1

P38 you are a perfect example of someone who doesn't give a shit about anyone but yourself.

Hunting won't attract undesirable people, using a pistol unsupervised will.
Tell me where pistols are needed in hunting?
You can't fire pull a rifle out of your waistband and fire one handed effectively with 17 rounds.

You say why punish law abiding citizens for what criminals do, why punish enforcement officers and society because you want to go shoot animals in the bush with a pistol instead of a rifle?

I'm not saying criminals don't already have handguns, but why make it easier for them by allowing people to use pistols in the public eye?

---

Are you in government by any chance? With all that logic behind your argument, Did you not read anything anyone else has said !!!!!!!!!!!

You have no grounds on this argument, These guys seem to know what there doing they have given decent logical evidence to support their claims, you keep saying the same old shit.

There is examples of uses for hunting, its like your not reading anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savage1

P38 you are a perfect example of someone who doesn't give a shit about anyone but yourself.

Hunting won't attract undesirable people, using a pistol unsupervised will.
Tell me where pistols are needed in hunting?
You can't fire pull a rifle out of your waistband and fire one handed effectively with 17 rounds.

You say why punish law abiding citizens for what criminals do, why punish enforcement officers and society because you want to go shoot animals in the bush with a pistol instead of a rifle?

I'm not saying criminals don't already have handguns, but why make it easier for them by allowing people to use pistols in the public eye?

---

You can't do that effectively with a pistol either. Have you ever fired one? They are extremely difficult to control and shoot with any accuracy unless you have had a shit load of practice. I bet if all guns were restricted to range use only you would be trying to make the case about why we don't need them for hunting. Pistols aren't needed in hunting. Neither are rifles. We can just buy our meat at the supermarket at the end of the day.

How the fuck is using pistols in the public eye gonna make it easier for criminals to get them, when you still need a B endorsement to get one? Jesus H Christ the mind boggles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTeEmNUkjw

Cheesy as hell but demonstrates what we are talking about

I cant believe I just watched that, Why would anyone hunt with a pistol it is so unethical :D

Really good vid, I can imagine thats what it would be like in Nz good clean ethical hunting.

Not to mention a lot of handgun hunting is done with very long barrel revolvers and T/C encore single shot pistols, not Glock 17's and the like

I know pistols can be used in hunting what I was saying is that they don't NEED to be used when we have rifles. People hunt for fun and pest control as much as food.

Pistols can be fired one handed, not as rapidly or accuratly as two handed I agree. And yes I have used one.

By making them able to be used for hunting they are going to be carried a lot more and people will see them being used making it easier to target them, vehicles broken into, burglary etc. Bit thin I know.

What evidence have they given to support their claims, how are pistols needed in hunting? If you look back in the 'what everyone does for a crust' thread you will see what I do for a job.

I'm not anti guns in anyway, I'm just anti anything that helps the wrong people get their hands on them, especially pistols.

Not trying to start a shit fight, maybe I should just end it here

I think someone has watched to much tv :(

The problem with internet though is just as you have showed a decent video there is always going to be something out there bad.

Just like head shots, say there good get a bunch of vids of deer getting nailed on the spot then find a bunch of vids of deer still alive with half its face dangling around.

This argument kinda will just go around in circle's as it is 2 different opinions.

Be good for bailing pigs, hunting in thick shit where a rifle will be a disadvantage?

Personally I don't have a problem with PNZ. I've shooting the "B' cat for about 4yrs and love it. You get to meet great people and have sh*t loads of fun. I have to agree handgun hunting would be fun but thinking about somethings I've seen and heard it scares the crap out of me. What about this scenario :- wondering along in thick NZ bush, you didn't realize the safety was knocked off and you go arse up down a bank ( I know it shouldn't be loaded, but bet it would happen), oh hell I shoot myself though the thigh, knee etc. Worse case I know, but we are having enough prob's with the long version of a pistol already. :huh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beavis

Not to mention a lot of handgun hunting is done with very long barrel revolvers and T/C encore single shot pistols, not Glock 17's and the like

---

Your not wrong Beavis.

A Glock would be the absolute worst hunting pistol.... I know because I own and shoot one currently. BTW they can hold 19 or 33 rounds depending on the mag length. ;)

This would be my Ideal Hunting Pistol for NZ conditions.
Attachment 3664

And This
Attachment 3665

:thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by roig

Personally I don't have a problem with PNZ. I've shooting the "B' cat for about 4yrs and love it. You get to meet great people and have sh*t loads of fun. I have to agree handgun hunting would be fun but thinking about somethings I've seen and heard it scares the crap out of me. What about this scenario :- wondering along in thick NZ bush, you didn't realize the safety was knocked off and you go arse up down a bank ( I know it shouldn't be loaded, but bet it would happen), oh hell I shoot myself though the thigh, knee etc. Worse case I know, but we are having enough prob's with the long version of a pistol already. :huh:

---

That can happen with a rifle?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Toby

Be good for bailing pigs, hunting in thick shit where a rifle will be a disadvantage?

---

Real pig hunter wouldnt be shooting pigs while the dogs are bailing thats what ya knife is for ..

Im not wanting to start a argument on this but, Just because you take a gun doent mean your not a real pig hunter!

I have a mate who is like that and when we went out pig hunting there was a good mob of pigs about 50m feeding all good eaters, I said before we went out bring the SKS but no apperantly a real pig hunter doesn't use a gun, first thing he said when we saw them, fuck, should of bought the SKS. We still got 3 of them with the dogs though

Thats them, not huge which probably helped in getting 3 that or all his talk of his dogs is true :)
Attachment 3666

A few years ago 160 handguns were stolen in Porirua.It didnt cause an upsurge in gun crime they just dissapeared

Me and the bros used GC alot in that term, then along came the show.. lol, sweet as

Of late it seems that hunting and firearm saftey is viewed by the general public as bad enough without throwing pistols into the mix.

Your not likely to see the relaxing of rules, regulations and movements of pistols any time soon, and for good reason.

Deerstalking with scoped pistols? What a load of bullshit, move aside long range hunting, we have a new contender!

Yup, I'm afraid that you're going to have to accept that your cap gun will only be going BANG at the range, when big brother lets you. :thumbsup:

I'd rather try and change attitudes than pander to current ones

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Whats bullshit about hunting deer with a handgun? The 357 magnum accounts for more deer each year in the US than any other caliber!!!

---

While I'm in favour of loosening restrictions on the locations that a pistol can be used at, I'd love to know the source of your statistics.

Same. I've never talked to anyone that shoots deer with a 357 cal in the US to be honest
30 would be the cal I would have thought to be king ?