Anyone else disappointed with M4s?

The bolt catch on the AR is small and difficult to operate, impossible to operate with the rifle shouldered, if you have to lock back the bolt to remove the mag in the case of a double feed then it's a fine motor movement to do so and is hard in a high stress situation without training.

Other than that, the charging handle is awkward to handle when you have the rifle shouldered, a side mounted one would be better. Reciprocating charging handle would be doubly better, as you could then dispense with the forward assist.

And while I'm on the subject, if you ever need to use the forward assist, then either your rifle is broken; is dirty as all hell and you should have cleaned it some time in the last 4,000 rounds; or you aren't operating the charging handle correctly - riding it forward rather than "slingshotting" it.


The SL8 is a terrible lump.

All that said, the AR is very light compared to other comparable rifles, very reliable if you get a decent one not some bargain-bin junk, and can be very accurate. It's also very modular and easy to work on, and the ergonomics are pretty great, and there is pretty much infinite after-market.

Yeap , I knew all the AR15 fan boys would HATE , my post , unfortunety , due to our restricted access to almost any semi-auto rifle other than an AR15 based rifle ( in NZ ) , and the current GovTs trend to not allow us to have the real cool stuff , it has slanted the veiws on many to idolise only what they can buy or have access to .

I comments about the Steyr AUG , may not be popular , BUT , Opps , I actually make my own mind up on stuff ( ie I am not convinced or brain washed my the USA ) , and usually its based on MY actual experience .
My liking the AUG does not come from , looking at glossy pics in books or any other such dribble , BUT from actually shooting IT , and have fired it quite a lot , both left & right handed .

I would take an AUG or SIG any day over an AR15 , I also like a lot of HK stuff , like there G3Ks , MP5s & HK53s , have not fired the HK rifles , BUT have fired the MP5 & MP5K , and they really do ROCK .

RE : HK 416 & 417 , I know Delta uses the 416 & also I think USMC are adopting a variant , I see Aussie , Brit SAS & French use the 417 and a few other Europen Armies using either the 416 0r 417 .

I also like Brens & GPMGs ( MAG58 ) , and Sterlings L2A3 & the L34A1 , and yeap ,shoot all those as well , like the Steyr TMP/BT MP9 , and yeap shoot that too , UZIs as well .

I have seen ARs that have had major corrision on the uppers & lowers , seen the hinge pin holes so rooted that the uppers twist .

P.S. I have a AR based rifle , BUT its only because I cannot buy what I really want , again thanks NZ , if I had access and was not raped on price , I would have an AUG , SIG550 & a G36 & Stoner63A.

Later Chris

Yeh me too. I'm really bummed out that military approved rifles aren't as good as ones I modify at home. Them SAS dudes could learn a thing or two from me - I've shot a goat at 440yds with a 6.78485`356 X 71856-`976 on a rest with no one shooting back at me with grenade launchers and AK 47's.

To be honest you lot ridiculing Military weapons Is beyond funny. THEY ARE MILITARY WEAPONS I'm sure they would laugh their heads off at your attempts more or less. We hunt deer NOT people. Next time anyone of you have to target and shoot a person or they will shoot you back - then you can comment on military arms. Otherwise pull yer fucking heads in. You really think you'd be interested in shooting a little group of 5 shots one foot to the left of the cunt with a turban firing full auto AK at you? All you want in that scenario is more firepower jam free. You may think firefights are you stickining yer head up with yer gun and firing back but they ain't. You F-ing well keep your body behind a solid object and one person sticks the gun up, points it behind them and empties a mag, drops the fucking mag, feeds anopther one in and keeps firing till another gun can join in. An accurate rifle means fucking diddly squat. A rifle that won't jam and throws lead down field with little recoil - give us that every day. After that some accuracy is needed but you worry about that once you've confirmed your not riddled and still have radio.

Hardly the same as a comfy day at the Range. Have any of you actually been fired upon whilst in charge of your firearm? If not how are you giving any sort of appraisal on a military firearm? I'm fairly bloody sure the M4 wasn't meant for a bunch of 'enthusiasts' to try target shooting with it.

Correction: We're talking about AR-15's not M4's, m4's are full auto capable whereas the ar-15 is semi only.....Also We're hunters aswell as targetshooters so don't go thinking we're just paper punchers here.

Oh my oh my its great, see you've pointed out a fair few points why our arms laws are getting pretty borderline ridiculous and thats being conservative -excuse the pun-.

I'd like to see MP5's, g3's etc more readily available mainly by in large for more selection to those whom a AR or an AK does not appeal, A shipment of some FN FAL's would be nice and Although I vehmently hate them Gunshitty's UMP 45's are nice in the sense of adding variety to the market, and also some AUGs.... realistically if they were to liven the market up something around the 3-3500 mark would do it, or some M1 garands from Korea even as a idea?

Fingers crossed what happens with AAB 285 in june aye! lets see if Banksie can't stop it???

NO POLITICS in any shape or form

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChrisF

Yeap , I knew all the AR15 fan boys would HATE , my post , unfortunety , due to our restricted access to almost any semi-auto rifle other than an AR15 based rifle ( in NZ ) , and the current GovTs trend to not allow us to have the real cool stuff , it has slanted the veiws on many to idolise only what they can buy or have access to .

I comments about the Steyr AUG , may not be popular , BUT , Opps , I actually make my own mind up on stuff ( ie I am not convinced or brain washed my the USA ) , and usually its based on MY actual experience .
My liking the AUG does not come from , looking at glossy pics in books or any other such dribble , BUT from actually shooting IT , and have fired it quite a lot , both left & right handed .

I would take an AUG or SIG any day over an AR15 , I also like a lot of HK stuff , like there G3Ks , MP5s & HK53s , have not fired the HK rifles , BUT have fired the MP5 & MP5K , and they really do ROCK .

RE : HK 416 & 417 , I know Delta uses the 416 & also I think USMC are adopting a variant , I see Aussie , Brit SAS & French use the 417 and a few other Europen Armies using either the 416 0r 417 .

I also like Brens & GPMGs ( MAG58 ) , and Sterlings L2A3 & the L34A1 , and yeap ,shoot all those as well , like the Steyr TMP/BT MP9 , and yeap shoot that too , UZIs as well .

I have seen ARs that have had major corrision on the uppers & lowers , seen the hinge pin holes so rooted that the uppers twist .

P.S. I have a AR based rifle , BUT its only because I cannot buy what I really want , again thanks NZ , if I had access and was not raped on price , I would have an AUG , SIG550 & a G36 & Stoner63A.

Later Chris

---

How dare you say the HK are good gimp has looked at ALL the pictures and obviously they are not suitable for his exact needs and whims at this time so obviously they are as useless as a .308. Actually everything is useless unless it has a BC that 'provides some sort of accuracy' according to gimp at the exact time he has that particular calibre, or wants a better calibre, or it's time to show his awesomeness about ballistics once again. Has Gimp ever actually been closer than quarter KM to an animal he has shot, or missed? I doubt it as his amazing awesomeness in everything possibly doesn't let him acknowledge the existence of anywhere outside of gimp world. Less the thought of actually thinking there may be be people who find him a complete and utter joke with his 'my calibre that I have right now is better than you or anything you say, right up until I change my calibre for something even less capable of actually shooting anything othet than a bit of paper at a distance I deem the most important because that is the distance my newest calibre shoots best at -------0.000000000000000000001 MOA at 57,000000000 km's. YAWN.

Right up until bollocks was spouted about on this thread I quite enjoyed it. But the bullshit from people who mostly don't hunt and just shoot at gongs long range - what the fuck has a military rifle have in your world of not even getting close to the animal your dispatching, let alone being faced with combat. MOA means sweet FA in a combat arena.
Join the army see some conflict - fire your weapon against those firing at you. Then slag the military weapons off. But don't slag them off because they don't shoot MOA on a bench in the range.
How many of you have fired a Bren gun and a stirling. When I was growing up we had to learn to use these as defence for my(then) country. They weren't supposed to be MOA they were designed to kill people and they did that quite well - like most military weapons do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spanners

NO POLITICS in any shape or form

---

Where's the politics?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MEB

Where's the politics?

---

Post above it.
Gun laws, Arms Act

It was decided before the forum even physically existed that there would be 3 rules here
1> No politics
2> No religion
3> Keep it reasonable

Pretty simple really, some just need a reminder more often than others.
We dont want to edit crap like that out of posts, but to stop it starting to fester away, it might be needed.

We've all been told! :)


Back on topic.

Alot of the points are valid regarding the AR families
-To lock the bolt open without a mag it is a pain, however its designed to lock open on an empty mag to allow bolt release when a full one is in, rather than having to rack the action - use it for what it was designed for and have no issues.
-Forward assist IS in essence useless.. if you have to hammer a round into the chamber, then you have issues. Incorrectly sized cases that don't chamber still wont even with the FA bashed - I know as I have ~1000rds that are tight, and wont chamber at all in most of my 223 uppers. The FA was not present on the original design and was a bandaid fix to a problem that never really existed. How many other guns can you name with a FA?
- Charging handle location IS a pain in the arse - when used with an optic - once again - never designed for that purpose

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE ARs, hence the dozen? in my collection in all sorts of calibers and configs, however those that think they are wonderful, flawless pieces of equipment with unmatched pinpoint accuracy, obviously haven't fired many round through them or other rifles.

My suggestion is to put a few thousand rounds though one in 3 gun type competition then evaluation the Black King of Kings again....

Obviously a hot button for you, MEB....

;)

Personally, I find all of the military semis (that I've tried) kind of annoying to shoot - with the exception of the pistols and the F1 submachine gun - which of course, isn't a semi unless you are clever on the trigger! They all make an annoying "GLOING" noise every time you pull the trigger.

That said - good on the guys who own and use them. Their hobby, their choice.

I'd happily have this:

http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...0-4135-jpg.jpg

Swiss Arms upper on a AR style lower

I think it should be law to own a semi

Seems like no one can have a reasonable discussion in the shooting forum without MEB having a fat cry. Gimp uses science and critical thinking when debating/discussing/whatever. Since when was that a bad thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the kid

Seems like no one can have a reasonable discussion in the shooting forum without MEB having a fat cry. Gimp uses science and critical thinking when debating/discussing/whatever. Since when was that a bad thing?

---

I also think Gimp has been fair on his assessment of the AR platform considering he owns one.

MEB as an ex-soldier that did his job and not just with a packed playlunch, I found your earlier post a bit unfair but understand where you were coming from.
Trust me. You dont have to have been in a real fire fight to give a fair assessment of any military weapon but it helps to have fired/employed it a fair bit.
The Bren gun was considered too accurate and was one of the main reasons they were replaced in the NZ military.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the kid

Gimp uses science and critical thinking

---

I think if you perform careful meta-analysis of Gimps posts you will find that what he usually uses is one line of acerbic backhander

First of all, I was talking about these rifles in a combat context. The problems I have mentioned are not an issue if you are target shooting or hunting but can be a major issue if you have a stoppage issue when somebody is firing back.

A battery assist would never be an option for me as it is not used for targets or hunting and I would never want to trust such a device in a life or death situation. We also don't have the same rifles each time. We are not allowed to modify the rifles in any way.

Rock River Arms: I was just using the AUG as an example of how other weapons do not have the problems I have mentioned. The AUG is not my current service weapon so I have no reason to 'dig' it. Releasing the bolt on the M4 is not the problem, it is locking it back that is. The design maybe 30yr old but that is no reason to stop developing them, a lot of American and ARVN soldiers were killed when the M16 was first introduced due to design flaws yet they were addressed. I think you missed the point with MEB comment, even hunting can't compare to combat as the animals you hunt do not shoot back, so really the only difference is a hunter sneaks up to his target. I personally would not like to see MP5s made readily available, the less we have of those weapons on the street the better, to much firepower easily concealed. I personally don't even like it that there are so many pistols in public hands. Don't get me wrong, I like the sport, but its just not worth them falling into the wrong hands.

In my opinion it's kinda pointless debating the virtues of a rifle for combat on a forum more inclined towards civilian shooting activities. I guess the people to ask would be special forces units, why do they still use M4's when there are supposedly better options? I'm not all up to play with it, but didn't US special ops ditch the FN SCAR and go back to M4's/416's because they thought it didn't offer any advantage over what they already had? For me personally, I can't really think of any semi auto platform more suitable for civilian applications than AR's. If I could only own two centrefires it would be a nice bolt action and a good AR. As for the comment about pistols, mp5's etc...I don't have the energy to go there...

As an aside, I think it is a good thing the Ar is getting more common here, cheaper and more accessible to the average shooter. I don't have any combat knowledge or experience though so apologies in advance if I'm not angry about nothing in particular:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MEB

How dare you say the HK are good gimp has looked at ALL the pictures and obviously they are not suitable for his exact needs and whims at this time so obviously they are as useless as a .308. Actually everything is useless unless it has a BC that 'provides some sort of accuracy' according to gimp at the exact time he has that particular calibre, or wants a better calibre, or it's time to show his awesomeness about ballistics once again. Has Gimp ever actually been closer than quarter KM to an animal he has shot, or missed? I doubt it as his amazing awesomeness in everything possibly doesn't let him acknowledge the existence of anywhere outside of gimp world. Less the thought of actually thinking there may be be people who find him a complete and utter joke with his 'my calibre that I have right now is better than you or anything you say, right up until I change my calibre for something even less capable of actually shooting anything othet than a bit of paper at a distance I deem the most important because that is the distance my newest calibre shoots best at -------0.000000000000000000001 MOA at 57,000000000 km's. YAWN.

Right up until bollocks was spouted about on this thread I quite enjoyed it. But the bullshit from people who mostly don't hunt and just shoot at gongs long range - what the fuck has a military rifle have in your world of not even getting close to the animal your dispatching, let alone being faced with combat. MOA means sweet FA in a combat arena.
Join the army see some conflict - fire your weapon against those firing at you. Then slag the military weapons off. But don't slag them off because they don't shoot MOA on a bench in the range.
How many of you have fired a Bren gun and a stirling. When I was growing up we had to learn to use these as defence for my(then) country. They weren't supposed to be MOA they were designed to kill people and they did that quite well - like most military weapons do.

---

So basically, you're really shit at reading comprehension.

This has been a good read so far. :D

I don't think I've ever owned/fired a rifle that was either perfect or didn't have quirks that lowered your opinion of it.

And if I'm wanting to buy a varmint barrel AR platform to smack multiple small things quickly at long range why wouldn't I want it MOA accurate. I'm not wanting figure 11's at 200m accuracy. Based on the specifications that the consumer ones come out with yeah they are a military based gun but surely they can be shooters too. At this stage 5-7 rounds is plenty so....