Bolt action 300BLK/308 subsonic

You know when you have an itch for a gun that won't go away, well, that's where I'm at with a bolt action in either 300BLK or 308 subsonic. There's been a few threads about this, some started by me, so apologies if this is getting boring. I want a quiet gun for shooting on private land to take goats at up to 100 metres. Unfortunately, I don't reload.

308 - no suitable factory ammo that I can find in NZ; standard rifle twist rates too slow to stabilise heavy subsonic projectiles to the extent that they may take out the suppressor as they leave the barrel?

300BLK - Hornady and Winchester have just started producing subsonic rounds which are designed for hunting, i.e. projectile expands at subsonic velocities on hitting animal. Not sure on NZ availability yet. There are a few other options out there as well. As for rifles:

*Ruger Ranch rifle - has magazine issues (although new model will take AR magazine); stock is too soft and bends. From what I've read, not a bad rifle, but it would be nice to buy something off the shelf that works without needing immediate attention.

*Blackout Remington 700 - heavy; seems to have multiple problems and now that Remington have folded, I'm even more wary.

*Mossberg MVP Patrol (Gun City) - don't really know anything about this one, not keen on the full barrel silencer.

*Tikka T3X (Gun City) - don't really know anything about this one either, not keen on the full barrel silencer. Not a factory gun I assume? Who would have done the modification?

*CZ 527 - new, don't know much yet. Hasn't arrived in NZ as far as I can tell.


So, what to do? Forget all this madness? Any other thoughts?

@shooternz on here makes 151gr cast HP projectiles that work well at subsonic speeds out of ordinary 308 barrels. They will expand and kill at subsonic velocities.

If you already have a 308 buying reloading gear will be cheaper than a new rifle.

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Originally Posted by berg243

bergara 44 pigger just need to thread it and fit a dpt so you can add extra baffles or shorten it with less baffles.nice and short with a decent punch and find a pistol shooter who reloads 44 mag and use cast lead projectiles.fitted with a 1.5 x 4 scope or similar would be a handy bush rifle also.

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i agree, i have a rossi 44 mag l/a that shoots out 300 grain subs. yep its not long range and the trajectory drop is awful compared to say my 7mm RM. but the energy at target is bloody awesome.
at the end of the day its foot pounds of energy (or some weird metric crap) that does the damage, a big heavy projectile at 1000 fps is devastating (ask dirty harry)

consider 357mag/38 special & 44mag/44 special . . . use the magnum cartridge or the Specials which are already going at subsonic speed

1-10 twist .308 barrels will work up to 200grns with subs

go for the cartridge that throws the widest and heaviest bullet, consider expansion a luxury that your probably not going to get all the time, plan on not getting it . . . my 2c

For me I would only consider a 300 blackout if you reload or can get someone to reload for you to the the best out of it.
I reload for a couple of mates using the heavy barreled Rem 700 300 blackout, they are running 208gr A-Max’s and 151gr HP for lifestyle blocks. Head shoot woollies and deer out too 80m free hand no problem.
A single shot 300 blackout are on TM from time to time.

Other calibers like 44mag, 308win etc would be easier to on sell if subsonic hunting isn’t your thing or run them with standard high power loads.

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Originally Posted by berg243

as soon as money allows I will be sourcing a 500s&w single shot. 500gr hornady load supersonic out of 8.5 inch barrel has 1505 ftlbs at 100 yards. subsonic the 500gr should have over 900ftlbs at 100m enough power and penetration and with no expansion leaving a half inch hole .

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seriously looking forward to seeing this . . . .

The best solution would be 44mag, 45-70 or 500sw. In a single shot. With the last 2 making use of heavy cast pills or even XTP style copper pills to expand at lower velocity have more mass and larger diameter already compared to 30cal options. It would be worth while getting into reloading to make the best use of subsonic no matter what you go with. Even a lee loader if you go 308 or 44mag, not sure if they have 300blk or the others.

I have done some messing around with subsonic in 308 and trail boss. No other powders.
I would try to go 300 BLK simply because you will have less case volume issues that 308 has. I doubt this will be an issue with heavy 200+ gr projectiles

If you really are set on 30cal here is my semi limited findings.

90gr XTP projectile pistol projectile with the idea it will expand down below subsonic velocity. you will be well below 50% case capacity to get it subsonic. So thats a no go. But works very well on top of a case 3/4+ full of Trail boss on goats. Quiet and very low recoil. Maybe a different powder and some filler material? I don't know anything about fillers and what I can find online contradicts its self all over the show so decided to not mess around with it.
Alos cant feed in my rifle - jams against the side. Zastava controlled feed Mauser 98 style action so double stack double feed. Possibly work something single stack push feed that just slides in like a Tikka.

125gr SST and Nosler BT. Similar to the XTP. I use this on top of a case full of TB. Works okay on goats I use this for inside 100m head and neck shooting. Works well enough in the front shoulder too but very few are Dead Right There. Have only had one run it was when I first started experimenting made it 10m before I gave it a 2nd.
Pros are it feeds from my rifle.

150Gr cast Hallow points as mentioned above by stug. Works much better on chest shots even at subsonic velocities. Because of the blunt nose does not feed in my rifle either, might work in a push feed. Cons. From what I have found reading other subsonic advice. After firing lead its not recommended to shoot copper projectiles down the barrel, so you cant have a standard high velocity load ready to go to shoot a deer or something at longer range. They are copper gas checked so you could drive them at about 1800fps or so if you wanted that bit of extra punch if don't want it purely as a subsonic rifle.

200 or 220Gr cast flat nose. Much the same as the 150gr except not gas checked. Even better on animals at subsonic velocities from my sample size of 4 goats. Again I have to single feed as they don't feed from the mag.

208 amax, could be worth a try. No experience but it would feed in my rifle and I would be limiting myself to Head and neck shots only as I doubt it will expand on chest shots.

For rifles.
Have a look at Model 7, Savage, but I think the best would be the Howa mini. That comes in 300blk with 10 round mag, nice and handy rifle.

EDIT: As for groupings. I have a 1:12 twist a barrel and the best at 50m was the 220gr cast flat nose grouping 1". The others varied around 1.5 to 2.5 the worst being the 125 BT. Even though the 220gr pill had the worst score on the stability calculator.

Bigger pistol bullets work well but with bigger diameter comes more noise...

The 450 Bushmaster is pretty impressive sub sonic, it is already as big or bigger than a sub 308 fully expanded...

Purpose built sub projectiles are the way forward in all calibre sizes but the are pretty spendy & you need a fast twist to get them to work well being heavy & long...

You can put a 30 cal 200+ projectile right through an animal end to end, if it doesn't hit anything substantial they will squawk/bleat & walk away or just stand there thinking WTF was that...frustrating as all hell....

Thanks for those replies. All read and digested!

I know reloading sounds very daunting and expensive to get into - it doesn’t have to be either. Get one of the lee classic loader kits in .308, and other than the cartridge components you’re away. This is how I got into reloading, good fun, cheap and not a huge learning curve either.

go cheap....7.62x39mm norinco cut off short suppressor added, get someone to load 151grn cast from shootersnz with something like 6grns trail boss behind it and go and have some fun. you have cheap option if animal is bit further away,just slip in a supersonic round. as Kiwi Greg has said,you got to hit vital bits or it will pencil through. you could use load at around 2000fps and it will still be quiet not subsonic quiet but still very mild and projectile preformance will be soo much more consistant and deadly. even using supersonic factory loads this combo wont be that noisy and will be a hell of a lot cheaper to run than the other two.

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Bigger pistol bullets work well but with bigger diameter comes more noise...

The 450 Bushmaster is pretty impressive sub sonic, it is already as big or bigger than a sub 308 fully expanded...

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450 bushmaster on a no4 303 action?

For the cost of the exercice you will probably got a ruger American in 450 BM?

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

go cheap....7.62x39mm norinco cut off short suppressor added, get someone to load 151grn cast from shootersnz with something like 6grns trail boss behind it and go and have some fun. you have cheap option if animal is bit further away,just slip in a supersonic round. as Kiwi Greg has said,you got to hit vital bits or it will pencil through. you could use load at around 2000fps and it will still be quiet not subsonic quiet but still very mild and projectile preformance will be soo much more consistant and deadly. even using supersonic factory loads this combo wont be that noisy and will be a hell of a lot cheaper to run than the other two.

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Yup.

Attachment 87367

mine is about 2inches shorter as stock had a crack in tip so it got docked and suppressor fitted to that length.wallabies pigs and deer dont like it very much,but my shoulder sure does and its a joy to carry and shoot.my bases came loose but are locktited on now...other than that never given me one bit of problems.

Most of those norinco barrels do not have their bore centered to the outside of the barrel where it gets cut for doing bush pigs suppressed guns. As long as the gunsmith who fits the suppressor knows what he is doing , that is fine. But concentricity with out side of the bore can be as fare as 1.5 mm out!

mine is a bisley one and is just fine n dandy....personally if he bore wasnt centred I wouldnt take it out if the shop....I have seen it once before and believe it or not it was a BLR .243!!!!!

For anyone interested, have a look at the following website for more info. www.kaimairifle.co.nz


I have done the occassional custom 300 whisper, blackout, 30BR, and 308win with 1:7 or 1:8" barrel for customers over the past 20 years, but with the introduction (in about 2014??) of the Lehigh 168gr bullets for deer it has been a game changer.

So i have started to promote the Kaimai 308win as an all-round option in the past couple of years. There is a fair bit of general info on the website for anyone who is wanting to learn more. In my opinion the days of doing 44mag or big .50 bore options have pretty much been relegated into redundancy by the Lehighs. Sure, they are expensive at $2.20 a pop, but if you are just using them for deer only then it's not too bad. You can still use cheaper bullets for plinking, or goats, or whatever.

I don't know if the new Hornady subsonic 30cal bullets will be able to match the terminal performance of the Lehighs, but we will no doubt be doing some tests once they are available. Email me if you want any info on a build, etc. as the costs do vary depending on if a donor rifle is being supplied or not. Cheers, Dean.

any word on WHEN we will see these unicorn turds??? ooops I mean hornady subsonic projectiles.....
the 151s shootersnz/Robert makes are pretty darn good. 14mm expansion from sub sonic .308 pill isnt to be sneazed at...and mine are going really slow I believe.

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Originally Posted by dfmaisey

For anyone interested, have a look at the following website for more info. www.kaimairifle.co.nz


I have done the occassional custom 300 whisper, blackout, 30BR, and 308win with 1:7 or 1:8" barrel for customers over the past 20 years, but with the introduction (in about 2014??) of the Lehigh 168gr bullets for deer it has been a game changer.

So i have started to promote the Kaimai 308win as an all-round option in the past couple of years. There is a fair bit of general info on the website for anyone who is wanting to learn more. In my opinion the days of doing 44mag or big .50 bore options have pretty much been relegated into redundancy by the Lehighs. Sure, they are expensive at $2.20 a pop, but if you are just using them for deer only then it's not too bad. You can still use cheaper bullets for plinking, or goats, or whatever.

I don't know if the new Hornady subsonic 30cal bullets will be able to match the terminal performance of the Lehighs, but we will no doubt be doing some tests once they are available. Email me if you want any info on a build, etc. as the costs do vary depending on if a donor rifle is being supplied or not. Cheers, Dean.

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for over a 100 years people have been saying the Big Bores day is over . . . history has proven otherwise

for the price of 1 LeHigh i can cast 100 405gr. .45 bullets . . . . $220 for a 100 LeHighs puts them in the exotic category

technology has worked to improve the performance of the .30cals but it didnt leave out the Big Bores . . . with modern scopes, rangefinders, apps, bullets, custom molds the old calibers, and the many modern Big Bores have made Big gains as well.

my 2C

I would agree, I can load mt .375WSM, sub-sonic with a big lead slug for fun (or bush hunting :D ) OR a big arse bullet going fast just in case I find an elephant in the bush.
You need to practise and that means 3,4 or 5 dollar projectiles are not an option for me at least.
I would love a big 338 terminator or similar but reality is I could not afford to practise with it.

15cents per projectile...couple of cents for primer....6ish grns of trail boss (after years of loading for poohseventy that took a bit to get head around) cases last ages as stuff all stress ...hmmmmm yip I can affort to plink/shoot hares/possums/rabbits as much as I like.

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Originally Posted by Friwi

For the cost of the exercice you will probably got a ruger American in 450 BM?

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yup fair enough. Was more thinking if a donor junker 303 popped up with a naffed barrel but even them seem to be a bit dear.
Barrels seem to worth as much as rifles now.
Back in '91 when my Winchester liteweight 243 was something like 900-1000 buckeroos with rings.
I never got a rebarrel done back then but just a basic one I seem to remember was maybe 500 fitted?
Rifles are comparatively cheaper nowadays- I don't see many new barrels under 700 dollars (usually more) and they still have to be fitted and maybe profiled.