maby he had a inside guy at gun city
being in a sales enviroment you quicky learn who your regulars are and who one of people are
and he would have been in there shit loads
maby he had a inside guy at gun city
being in a sales enviroment you quicky learn who your regulars are and who one of people are
and he would have been in there shit loads
If online based it will cost bugger all. Seriously bugger all. Can't compare to Canada - different population, different country.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
What will it achieve? It will achieve a record of all firearms in NZ...which we currently don't have and the above incident is exactly why we need one.
Compliance low? It should be mandatory then there won't be an option - especially for new rifles from dealers, that's easy to enforce through them just as showing your license when you buy new now. Private sales will be different yes but like car ownership the seller will want to make it happen....just as seeing the buyers license now.
[QUOTE=jord;242565]Having a centralised registry of firearms, owners and addresses would be piss easy to set up these days.
You reckon? When I purchased my first firearm I went to the local police station to register it and the answer I got was " we don't register firearms anymore" I was floored couldn't believe their attitude..Regards Mohawk
[QUOTE=Mohawk660;242604]Good on you. I agree - it's the wrong attitude. It needs to be backed across the board though which is always hard ebcuase not many like change.Quote:
Originally Posted by jord
I can't stress how easy it is to do this sort of thing online now - just as car rego, ownership and even the mechanic doing your WOF is all done online etc
If the dealer does that when you buy new or second hand from them, then the work is done for you - instead of writing in their book under the counter they just wack in a few details onto the system and bang it's done and with the internet now days it can be centralised very very easily. As for private sales....over the internet when the deal is taking place at the buyer/sellers home or go down to the post office like you do with car ownership but instead of the VIN you have a firearm serial number. The only thing that will stop it working is the anti brigade. I'm not for disarmament or anything rediculous like that but for shit sake look at what has just happened as the result - yes he got caught....after 69 firearms had passed through unnoticed! It didn't work and was removed in 82 because in my opinion the technology wasn't there - not saying it can't be done but it is really not that hard to set up and run these days.
Registering firearms does not stop them from getting into the wrong hands. I experienced the Canadian gun registry first hand while working in a hunting shop over there. It was completely flawed, the public and police knew it, it just took a few billion dollars and a lot of head scratching by the politicians to realize it. Also any online database/registry is at risk of being hacked or compromised, which also occurred with the Canadian registry.
I agree that harsher penalties for firearm related crime is a better option.
Gimp is also correct in stating that the current system obviously worked, otherwise the guy would not have been caught.
That's good to hear firsthand info. That's my opinion and I think it could work if backed across the board but I'm happy to hear others. Harsher penalties is always a good thing it just has to be reasonable for it to even have a chance to be heard.
Sent from my Browning
We should go back to the original arms act of 1983.
It would be interesting to know how he got caught? I agree there should be harsher penalties for crims who have/use guns.
Firearm registry has been a feature in South Africa for ever. All the criminals I ever accosted with rusty AK 47s', Norinco 9mm hand guns, Baby Brownings' and Homemades etc. never held a licence or could even spell register.
Registry doesn't work there and the illegal firearms probably out number the registered ones. The naughty guns over there are also really naughty as most have the option of Automatic and that's where the switch is left mostly.
We really don't need more unnecessary bureaucratic nonsense in God's Own. It's just fine the way it is, thank you very much.
use the illegal monies from his gun sales plus any recovered from the deficient doses of DNA(aka Customers)to rent his prison cell for 10yrs.let him go cold turkey from the meth shit.yes tis extreme but it might just make him realise 5mins of glory brings 10yrs of hell .also his socalled mates might think twice about being out of pocket supporting this scrote!
Man after me own heart Kotuku.Quote:
Originally Posted by kotuku
I went into Hunting and Fishing a month ago and brought 3 firearms. I would have thought this would be quite common for shops like this, to see people buy a few firearms at once. H&F only record sales in a book on the counter so i doubt that excessive purchases would be noticed.
[QUOTE=jord;242608]Jord (and Mowhawk660) mate, I have had B and E endorsements since forever and these firearms ARE registered with police. I get randomly Visited and my security checked every year. If I had a dollar for every time their list of what I am supposed to have was incorrect then I would be a few bob ahead. I keep all my Permits to Procure an copies of the ones sent to me by people I have sold stuff too. I am only talking 10 or so firearms over this time. So if that can't get that right then a registry is doomed to fail. I also have a feeling if I hadn't kept copies of all the paperwork I might have been is a difficult spot. Unfortunate but true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohawk660
Sometimes Bad people do bad stuff and they should be caught and punished, end of story.
Totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikee
I also don't want the police having a shopping list of what I have. Remember when they literally gave the personal details of a shitload of trademe members to criminals? (The urewera terrorist deal). And remember when you could access also kinds of stuff from any old public terminal in WINZ? Government cybersecurity sucks
Gun City's sales people are probably on a monthly sales bonus scheme, anyway they caught the dickhead and I dare say he will go inside for a few years. The cops will watch him closely when he is released. Hope he gets his arse pounded inside.:D
That's a real shame mikee. Thanks for insight into those cats and way they have been handled.
I'm in no way saying these bastards shouldn't be caught and punished. I'm 110% for that. And they should be punished harshly. I think a register should be made at least for new purchases. Like our vehicle ownership register. Online and on time - that system works fine - as you say, our current firearms one does not. They are not the same in structure at all and neither was the one scrapped in 82. The Canadian one is a failure and I don't dispute that. A register/registry doesn't mean a government department needs to be set up nor does it mean checking any and every firearm yearly, it does however offer a starting point to get a picture at what we're dealing with in NZ and a way to at least begin tracking firearms so shit like this can be identified earlier than 69 guns down the track.
Sent from my Browning
He was caught, firearms crime is a non existent issue here, the system worked, looking for a registry is just trying to fuck yourself
Jord, I'll have to agree to disagree.
I respect that as do I your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikee
I have a fairly personal tie to this issue and perhaps it's clouding my judgement - one thing we can agree on is this guy is a cock and I'm glad he's been caught.
Yay some gang members got sold some shitty cutdown .22s. They never do anything with them and they've probably been recovered anyway
Regarding registration of individual firearms, here are the givens:
- there are huge numbers of unknown firearms out there
- criminals will never comply with registration
- firearms will always be available on the blackmarket
- registration will only cost/inconvenience legitimate users
- an incomplete database is utterly useless when trying to track firearms used by criminals
Nett result: FORGET registration, focus on enforcement of existing penalties
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamsav
Shit not much I can add to that but AMEN especially the last bit
It seems to me that a single shop sold near on 70 A cat guns, along with all the bits needed to turn them into illegal MSSAs to the same guy. Why are we talking about registration, when the question we should be asking is why the shop is apparently so ready to sell MSSA parts to guys who only buy/are licensed for A can guns? Does the shop need to come in for some scrutiny here?Quote:
Originally Posted by jord
Also, just in case you weren't aware, the NZ police can't administer a register of less than 10k restricted weapons and MSSAs and haven't been able to run it without consistently getting it wrong year after year. There is no way in the world that they can run a firearms register, regardless of how technologically simple you think it is. According to the Thorpe report a register needs over 80% compliance to be effective. A register of rifles moving forward is daft. Guns don't have an expiry date, you'd be ignoring over 1 million guns already in circulation, and your register would be fatally flawed from the outset.
I also recall reading somewhere that the Canadian register, despite the $billion plus spent on it, did not contribute to the solving of any crime. Doesn't that worry you slightly? What will a register solve that the system we already have didn't already just solve with the guys arrest?
Gun city didn't do anything illegal, it's a big store with purchases split between 2 stores and probably multiple staff. It's also stupid to try restrict "MSSA parts" to endorsed shooters as 1) it's unenforceable 2) it's pointless like the whole E endorsement system and c) there are A cat equivalents and uses for pretty much all "MSSA parts" or guns
The car registration system costs what, $250 a year, per car, do you want to pay that for each firearm you own every year to pay to administer it? It'd be relatively more expensive due to economy of scale too. Would make owning a norinco uneconomical fast
Registering firearms is just another way to ensure the law abiding get fucked. Criminals will not register guns. A register will not prevent this thing happening, "Ah Sir, the register tells me you have recently bought 69 firearms", "yes officer I have". He was hardly going to say he cut them down, filed them off and sold them to the Headhunters for his next crack bag.
Scenario, all the legal guns in NZ are registered, some unstable madman steals his flatmates 8 shot M1 benelli ( in a cupboard with a shit padlock, fully within the law) and bombs up a schoolbus. PUBLIC OUTRAGE!!! Kneejerk reaction by powers to be and Semi auto 12g shotguns are possibly banned, definitely severely curtailed, definitely at a great cost to all involved.
Much better ways out there to prevent firearms falling into the hands of crims and madmen, starting with a decent lockup requirement. Combined with the obviously good work of the cops here tagging this guy I think we have a pretty good system, we ourselves can do more than a registry ever would. Should be one of the 7 rules, "Registry is a swear".
Largely I agree with you about the shop, mostly I'm pointing out that the average gun owner is less at fault here than the shop that sold the guy $50k plus worth of guns/ammo/parts without apparently wondering what he was up to.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
FWIW, as far as I can see, the current rules worked fine. They guy got arrested. Like a lot of others in this thread, I don't see the need for calling for making changes based on a single event.
Didn't you know? It was David Tipple from Guncity.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamsav
Not sure whether to laugh and agree with you, or to ask if you're entirely serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamsav
Just to check that you did know that the guy you're talking about is David Tipple, the owner of gun city?
Yeah ok I see your points. I'm happy to drop it and admit it seems incompatible with human nature and plain and simple won't work. I don't want to be arrogant, ignorant or even proud enough to float the idea beyond it's means.
How do we stop ordeals like this happening then? Harsher punishment isn't the be all and end all either. Not even capital punishment stops people using and abusing. There must be something to stem the flow to these guys, especially on this scale? I've had my idea blown to smithereens, someone elses turn.
Farrk time for a whisky.
:D:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by hamsav
Capital punishment would probably stop a few people. But if someone is set on being a fuck face they're gonna be a fuck face. Only postive for the death sentence is at least theres no more fuck face, why'd they stop the death sentence again :D jks
An unfortunate number of executed people being found to have not committed the crime in question? :D
Well it's been stopped. The guy was caught. Police monitoring of gang activities would pick this sort of thing up pretty quickly at a guess. It's not like there's any other market for a bunch of "illegal" guns. Look harder at the criminals, rather than inconveniencing the shit out of usQuote:
Originally Posted by jord
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
Capital punishment is pretty much shown to a) be more expensive than life imprisonment and b) have no real deterrent effect on any crime
Not that I am arguing the point but how is one lethal injection more expensive than food housing health care etc for 60 odd years?
appeals process etc. and you HAVE to have an appeals process and a muuuuch higher standard of proof, to prevent innocent people getting put to death. Make it cheaper, more innocent people WILL be killed by the state.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Yes Tipple got in the shit for breaching ITAR basically, as I understand it.
I can understand hunters and casual shooters thinking "whats wrong with registration? It isn't that big of an inconvenience". My answer to that is it would be a huge inconvenience for guys like me and some of my friends who buy, sell and trade firearms often. It is enough of a pain in the ass having to get mail order forms and import permits, if the AO isn't in, I'm shit out of luck. I recently tried to jack up custody of an AR from gimp, by the time I got the permit to procure, he was leaving the country, the P2P expires next month so it has basically torpedoed our plans. FUCK having to deal with crap like that for every gun I sell or take possession of. That is the number one reason I am against universal registration. All good if you buy a rifle once a year...or a decade.
I hate to be the wank that points it out, but where are all the AR's and AK's in this? The way they bang on about them being assault weapons and desirable for undesirables, you would think he would be palming those off in mass.
Turns out that's a load of unsubstantiated bullshit