Toby, I might be a redneck hick from the south but I don't and would not support captial punishment. Being dead is not a punishment its just being dead. the perpetrators family end up being punished, and they may have done nothing and also there is too much room for error. Look at all the police "opps we got it wrong"s lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
I would pay more tax if they were sentenced to the rest of their natural lives and it meant it
Wonder if it is because you can't just take a hacksaw to an AR or AK and cut it down to pistol length without turning them into an awkward single shot? Shortening any sort of gas system requires a bit more know how than hacking an old sxs, 303, or 10/22 off short.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beavis
I thought I'd try find out what this guy is looking at for his trouble, the firearms stuff is pretty petty compared to Class A drug dealing. Supplying a firearm to an unlicensed person carries a smack on the wrist as per the Police Firearms Manual 2002: 1.12 Every person commits an offence who sells or supplies a firearm (other than a pistol, MSSA, or restricted weapon) to any person who is not the holder of a Firearms Licence or Dealers Licence. Section 43, Arms Act 1983. Penalty: 3 months - $1000 or both. (Will that be 3 months per unit sold? I would be very surprised...)
Supplying meth will be the real clincher here:
Some drug offences and maximum penalties
In the following list, 'indictment' refers to a conviction dealt with in a Crown Court (with a jury); 'summarily' refers to a conviction in a Magistrates Court.
Possession
Class A 6 months imprisonment and/or $1,000 fine
Class B 3 months imprisonment and/or $500 fine
Class C 3 months imprisonment and/or $500 fine
Supply or manufacture
Class A Life imprisonment
Class B 14 years imprisonment
Class C Indictment – 8 years imprisonment. Summarily – 1 year jail and/or $1,000 fine
I wonder if it will be treated like this one: 'Methamphetamine queen' appeals 20-year sentence - National - NZ Herald News I am interested to see how the courts deal with this guy.
I'm with mikee on this, but I would prefer to see prisons downgraded a little in lieu of a tax hike. Not necessarily medieval, but it doesn't need to be anywhere near as nice as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikee
section 44Quote:
44Selling or supplying pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon to person who does not hold permit to import or to procure
(1)Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to a fine not exceeding $4,000 or to both who sells or supplies a pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon to any person other than a person who is authorised—
(a)by a permit issued for the purposes of section 16(1) to bring or cause to be brought or sent into New Zealand that pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon; or
(b)by a permit issued under section 35 to procure that pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon.
I would rather see the money spent on positive results-focussed rehabilitation and prevention programs rather than emotive "punish them!!" mentality. Stop crime before it happens through reducing poverty etc maybe, cos GETTING TOUGH ON CRIME pretty much hasn't worked awesome everQuote:
Originally Posted by square1
Quote:
Originally Posted by scaggly
Possibly a combination of that + an AR is $2000+ and this dudes average gun price is like $675 ish
Would have thought "69" would have rung bells
It's not an 'emotive "punish them!!"', I think generally it's a little comfortable in there. What sort of prevention programs do you think could be implemented? Do convicts generally have a desire to be rehabilitated?Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
It doesn't really matter if they have a desire to be rehabilitated, the focus for spending should 100% be on finding out what is actually effective at reducing crime, and doing that.
Hmmm I disagree. What if crappier prison conditions resulted in a reduction in crime?
Does it? If so, awesome, do itQuote:
Originally Posted by square1
but research it first. And I would lay money that it doesn't.
e:5 seconds google finds an abstract for a paper that claims to have found that deaths in prison (as an indicator of prison conditions) is negatively correlated with the crime rate, so yeah, make prisons shitter if you want more crime
presumably shitty prisons will make the inmates resent society further and feel more alienated from it
but this isn't really a debate to be had here, we're kinda way off track
Rehab programmes don't work. Ask any long time CO and they'll tell you that crims stop offending when they decide they're sick of getting locked up and not before. Some of the rehab programmes we run in NZ cost upwards of $60k per person, per year. These are the most effective programmes, usually for sex offenders, and these programmes reduce reoffending by a little over 10% for those that participate. That doesn't count the $90k per year it costs to lock them up. Some of the other programmes run in NZ prisons actually make people more likely to offend :D and we spend over a $billion per year to keep doing something that doesn't work. Mostly we do it because apparently getting tough on crime is a vote winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
Of the 8k plus people imprisoned at any one time in NZ, guess how many are back in prison five years after getting out? After all the money we spend 'rehabilitating' and 'reintegrating' them back into the community....
50%. That's right. Half of the people in prison now will be back in prison within 5 years. It keeps the justice system ticking over nicely though, and keeps a lot of police, lawyers, judges, prison officers and probation staff in a fairly well paid lifestyle.
What does stop people committing crimes? A decent education, a job, an environment where a prison record is not the norm, or a rite of passage. But hey, it isn't sexy (or a vote winner) to spend money on things like that.
Doesn't work. It just means they'd have less to lose when they play up. Have you actually been inside a prison? They are miserable, soulless shit holes, full of angry bastards with nothing to do with their days but get angrier.Quote:
Originally Posted by square1
that's what I meant by prevention.... better to make sure they never end up in prison in the first place. I don't know about rehab programs specifically soQuote:
Originally Posted by scaggly
:D Sadly, I do know quite a lot about those rehab programmes, and mostly they're useless.
Regardless what I would like is the money to be spend on programs that ARE found to be positive. Results focussed spending, not retarded vote-buyingQuote:
Originally Posted by scaggly
Preaching to the choir...Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
That's what I was going to say, and yes I've seen the inside. They're also full of people from all corners of society: educated, from families of repute, dirt poor, innocent, wealthy, etc who have damaged many lives and I believe the punishment often doesn't fit the crime, and far too much effort is put into trying to make someone a better person and far too little into repairing the lives of those affected by the crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by scaggly
You're right gimp, a topic for another thread/day :)
Some of you guys , really miss the point ,
1) The current people in the Police/govT want registration , and because they WANT it , and they are the ones with the real power , it will happen , maybe not today , but in the for near future .
2 ) Facts , like registration , has not & will not work , means NOTHING to them , sorry Spock .
3 ) The Police want the A cat ARs/black rifles stopped , and sooner or latter , that will happen , by hook or by crook .
4 ) The ARs , are not the only thing they want stopped , BUT its high up on the list , others on that list will be semi-auto shotguns & pumps , and others that you would not really think about .
5 ) My maths is shaky , BUT given that I would ONLY let death row run 3-6 mths , YEAP in my book , it would be alot cheaper than 3-4 Million dollars for say 30-40yrs of prison , and IF you cannot do that because you are too soft , please use option " B " , send them to Indo to house them in their prisons , give them say 10k a yr , and it woud be cheaper than the 100k in NZ , and Indo at 10k , would love IT , as they would actually turn a profit on that 10k , and we ( NZ ) love it because we save 90k plus a yr .
6 ) The death penility , would be for pediphiles , spree & serial killers as well , and as such for the killers , it would actually mean less people killed , as these people when released do it again , thats been proven .
7 ) We do have monsters here in NZ , and until you , a) read of what some of them actually DO & believe IT , or b ) have it happen to you or someone you know , you we live in fairy land .
8 ) Prison rehab , its been proven NOT to work for countless years , BUT what does the GovT / Prison still do , you guessed It , rehab , ( the people that run the rehab , are laughing their asses off )
9 ) This country will get worse , as the message we are giving them , is they can do what ever they like , with little in the way of real penilties , we talk too much , and do too little , talk does not hurt them , taking their money , imprisoning & bashing them , are the ONLY things Thugs understand . Not that long ago , the crims where kept in line , as they KNEW the penilites, touch a Cop , you went inside for 3mths , bash a Cop its a yr , very few ever raised a hand to a Cop in the OLD days .They could walk into any Pub in ones or twos , and never have a problem , for If someone did have a go , they whole station , would pay them a visit , bash them and lock them up , and make a mess of the Pub .Thats consequences , they understand that , Laws in them selves do nothing .
Later Chris
True. But go back the next month and do the same. And again. And again. For 18 months. It's not the issue of buying multiple firearms, it's the sheer quantity that seems to have a blind eye turned on it by GunCity - either online or at either of their 2 shops. And that will be raising eyebrows.Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingMad
The rest of this thread is like listening to talkback radio :D
Till the dog bites back
While it's fun to say YEAH CONCRETE AND BARS BREAD AND WATER SHIT IN A BUCKET SODOMY IN THE SHOWERS LET THE SCREWS BEAT THEM and it really makes you feel good about how those nasty criminals are getting what they deserve, if it results in a greater rate of reoffending and has no deterrent effect, as May or may not be shown by studies, is that what we really want? Shouldn't we want to actively find what works to reduce crime and do that, rather than just do what gives you a wee punish-the-crooks boner? Idealistic arghh get-tough-on-crime vs "what actually works here?"Quote:
Originally Posted by hamsav
Complete agree Gimp.
Also helps to see this whole debate from the perspective of either you or a family member being in prison for whatever reason... If you were behind bars, how would you like to be treated ?
The "hard labour, zero rehabilitation" approach definitely breeds more repeat offenders in my view.
Problem is prison is too late, programs like the Naenae boxing academy etc do more to help young guys getting their shit sorted than any prison rehabilitation program ever would...
I think David Tipple has a love hate relationship with the NZ Police - note he loves to hate them and he will be as obstructive as he can possibly be when it comes to dealing with them.
Has a civil libertarian political biasis but would have thought the time spent in the US Penal system might have moderated his views
I don't think it should be any of those things but simply a place where you end up with no freedom to go about your business. Not comfortable but not uncomfortable either. I was always of the belief that prisons were places to put lawbreaking people to keep "regular people" safe. Not really a punishment but more to keep the 2 sides apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
ChrisF, I think you've go it in one mate. Well said.
It's a 'conundrum'. We want the monsters removed from society but we lack the resolve to see it through.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisF
Your forum name says it all
A robust and faultless justice system is needed before capital punishment could be looked at as an option otherwise the stakes are far too high and we all know that having a faultless justice system is about as likely as shooting a 14 pointer in Jaffa land from southland with an air pistol.
Sent from my Browning
how can I "like" that post twice?
Unlike it, then simply like it again. Done.
The penal system & public attitude has shifted bias so much that it seems more about rehabilitation of criminals, than punishing them.
Surely, victims of crime deserve justice for being wronged, as much if not more than society can be blamed for failing said criminals.
There is a lack of consequence.
This was on the Herald site today for anyone interested: Jail for selling $50k worth of firearms to criminals - National - NZ Herald News
And the typical Granny Herald (who have their pay for view subscription service ready to go - no big loss) have their agenda on 'easy' access and registration as per normal in the article.
But barely touch on the fact this scum bag somehow managed to get a license with 53 previous convictions in Australia!?
WTF? Isn't it then a vetting issue for NZ Police that allowed this guy to legally purchase the arms and ammo?
Another police licensing failure? Never
Imagine how easily universal registration would be handled!
Absolutely fool proof and 120% accurate, just like the last time.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
Duh you'd only get honest ones in the system, horse gone bolted! 5 yrs for illegally selling firearms and making P? Should be a min of 30 yrs what dumb arsed laws we have. Believe shortly on a non collectors licence it will be a max of six pistols and 25 mixed shotguns/ rifles.
All licence renewals in the BOP I believe is requiring an approved safe. Six mm to front and 3mm to rest! Believe this is the requirement of the new district commander, unconfirmed only what I hear. Seems it's all ad hock?
And not really legalQuote:
Originally Posted by Maca49