When has it ever bee about need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmodel7
Main thing for a bush gun is carbine length and able to handle knocks
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When has it ever bee about need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmodel7
Main thing for a bush gun is carbine length and able to handle knocks
Sent from my SM-G390Y using Tapatalk
Get back in ya cageQuote:
Originally Posted by Frodo
There's a lot that goes into this discussion, because as you develop as a hunter and as a shooter, your requirement and level of skill changes considerably. The rifle i would recommend to a new hunter is not the rifle I would buy myself.
Another consideration is making the decision as to whether you are primarily a hunter or primarily a shooter, as both are very separate paths and the methods of employing each rifle are different again.
I dont think any one rifle can be a be all end all.
End of the day the rifle you enjoy shooting and are successful with is the perfect rifle for the job at the time.
If I were to state some features for a beginner, they would be :
-A silent Action with a physically tangible half cock (no loud clicks when moving into half cock)
-5 Rd Capacity (if Internal)
-Short Action (.222 all the way to 6.5 and the WSMs - .270 is poos)
-Suppressor (Choose your flavour)
-a DECENT OPTIC (IMO More important than the rifle)
-a decent trigger (That you have trained with and doesn't suprise you)
-Wood/Poly stocks don't really bother me , I've yet yo have a Wood Stock rot on me but Wood sure as hell is prettier. Understand the argument there though.
-Being able to top load rather than fumbling with removing magazines in a hurry (mag fed top loaders are excellent - looking at you @norsk )
But then again , all this is smashed to shit if you're wracking Bull Tahr at 800m.
Different strokes for different folks is what I'm trying to say.
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NZ Hunting?
SS, Cerakoted, plastic stock - one short one, one long one.
Calibre: bigger than small, smaller than big.
Suppressor, because I'm deaf enough already.
My Finnwolf
308
Detachable mag
Ability to load through ejection port
3-9 scope
qd sling.
Fast action
Not many sticky out bits to snag on things.
It’s ‘all round’ enough for me:thumbsup:
Also just have picatinny rails so I can attach 3 torches a bayonet and anything else imaginable under the sun
This , Ugly but very practical. Interestingly this is the 5 th T3 I have brought since 2004 . Im not a fan of them but they are just so damm practical and shoot so well. Plus I can treat it like shit without having to worry about scratch's and blueing etc like I do with some of my other rifles.
Tikka T3x 7mm08
Sortened to 18" with a Hardy can
Weighs 3487 gms with 3 in the mag. Lighter now ive changed the bolt handle . Weighs nothing.
Extremely accurate - sub moa , SHoots 140 gn ballistic tips at 2680 fps
Vx3 4.5x14.50 with a leupold custom turret. Ideal from 20 yds to 550 yds. Carry a detachable bipod 300 gms in my bumbag when hunting. Sacks deer.
Attachment 164172
Attachment 164173
Attachment 164174
Top load mag and it would be perfect aye ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan F
Sako 85, 308W, full length barrel Ken Henderson stock, Swarovski Z5 3.5 – 18 Scope, DPS Can with stainless baffle, shoots half moa, heavy high BC projectile at moderate speed, 5 in the mag. Total weight a hair over 8lbs.
Hunting rifle
Attachment 164411
Sako Finn
A-Tec suppressor
NIghtforce 2.5-10x42
Optilock ringmounts
Previously 140gr Amax@ 2750 Currently 120GR Bt's at 2950.
6.5x55.
Shooting rifle
Attachment 164414
1990 Remington BDL action.
Bartlein 26" 3B barrel
Nightforce Rail
Bell and Carlson Alaskan 11 stock
DPT suppressor .
Schmidt and Bender PM11 scope with P4 Fein reticle
Current load 140gr amax
6.5 06.
The best rifle is the one that you know well, fits you properly, accurate and one that you enjoy using and are proud to own.
Lots of time with a rifle that is an old friend, is likely to make you more successful than the shiny new one that’s 15g lighter or sends bullets 27fps faster.....
And as for accuracy? Whatever MOA is required for your hunting type, minus a little for error in the field. For me that’s deer out to 300yds so in reality 1.5moa is good enough.
My favourite all-rounder.
300 saum (could well be a 300wsm), 20" barrel, Sako A7 (they top load). Stug stock. 165 grn at 3k.
Decent 3-15 'scope.
30 cals make big holes.
Attachment 164421
Is the thread for the supressor cut into the fluting?
Mine? No. Its a Hardy barrel that was fluted after it was cut to length. Fluting ends a couple of inches from the muzzle. Excellent barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by kano308
Nice setup, very similar to what I have but with a 19in barrel and a VX-6, shooting 178 eldxQuote:
Originally Posted by flock
BSA Majestic 7x57 20inch barrel suppressed, 4.5x14 VX3 Boone and Crockett. Good for everything in NZ out to 500yds, I still haven’t found one but when I do I will be a happy man.
@WireWorking have a look at what just popped up in for sale section.....its neither a majestic of 7x57 buts its plurry close on both counts and is a thing of beauty. just dont cut barrel off to suppress or this semi old man will cry......
The focus is on Red deer, pigs and dare I say it goats.
And it will be carried for typically 4-10 hr a day off track, in forest at least and often scrub, usually in rain.
The rifle has to be 110% capable on 20m snap shots in the bush, plus shots onto slips and closer ones on tussock tops and farmland ie up to 200m. So this directs us to the 308 and 3006 size cases and 120-180gr projectiles, doing 2600 fps or more.
Then, it needs to be satisfactory if pressed into service on smaller animals like Hares and the South Island (Bennetts) wallaby or the more testing species like tahr or wapiti if the opportunity arises. These need a bit more flat shooting and a bit more accuracy.
The optic needs to be easily useable under canopy and cloud and for practical purposes able to see anything you can see with the naked eye. So, this is 40mm objective and 3x at lower end for bush shots, with 9x at upper for those 200m shots, preferably 12x. The reticle needs to be thick enough to se in low light, possibly illuminated.
Surely an unmolested .222 L461 Sako Vixen with period correct Leupold or Euro low power premium scope is the correct answer?
Your crosshairs and bullets will be guided by the force, of the old NZFS Deer cullers, both living and departed.
i agree, the wimmin folk in our family use the 270
actually im kidding, theres a lot of 270s out come elk season. for an all around rifle either a featherweight 7x57 65.55 or my old standby a light weight 30-06 with 130 or 150gr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caberslash
Yes caber im sure the said vixen has been used all round NZ with great success, by expert marksmen. :)
Likewise various SMLE have been used all round and successfully by average marksmen. I had shot alll the above mentioned species with my mk III*. The wallaby was i admit only from a range of 2 inches.
The drawback of both weapons, specially the .222 is the cartridge. A TRUE all rounder needs to be useable by truly mediocre stalkers and shooters, with good success. That’s why i suggested the 3006.
This wasnt the original question . That was “desirable features”. But, we must be systematic.
Reliability: feed specially. In dirt, mud, deer hair, someone elses ammo.
Toughness: in wet, dropping on rocks, used as walking stick or tent pole.
Stability: zero not to move in wet or dry or after a knock.
Durability: same function after 10 years of hard use. Scope not fogged, barrell not rusted out, stock and bedding still ok ( these can be maintained of course.
Accuracy only needs to be 2 moa if the zero is truly stable.
Power: kill and recover game even with marginal shots eg a bit far back in the ribs.
Optics adequate to identify game and non game, see deer clearly in dark bush and at 200m in evening. Accurate adjustments when sighting in. Not fog. Good reticle.
Shootability: stock trigger and scope placement.
3 shot mag at least.
Weight depends on hunters physique but for an average 80kg bloke 3.5 - 4 kg all up with bolt and ammo. Over 4kg us doecialised for semi target or long range.
Gizmos: needs sling. Suppressor optional. Bipod is specialised for a minority of hunting and capability to fit one is not essential. Dialup sights and parallax not essential.
This wasnt the original question . That was “desirable features”. But, we must be systematic.
Reliability: feed specially. In dirt, mud, deer hair, someone elses ammo.
Toughness: in wet, dropping on rocks, used as walking stick or tent pole.
Stability: zero not to move in wet or dry or after a knock.
Durability: same function after 10 years of hard use. Scope not fogged, barrell not rusted out, stock and bedding still ok ( these can be maintained of course.
Accuracy only needs to be 2 moa if the zero is truly stable.
Power: kill and recover game even with marginal shots eg a bit far back in the ribs.
Optics adequate to identify game and non game, see deer clearly in dark bush and at 200m in evening. Accurate adjustments when sighting in. Not fog. Good reticle.
Shootability: stock trigger and scope placement.
3 shot mag at least.
Weight depends on hunters physique but for an average 80kg bloke 3.5 - 4 kg all up with bolt and ammo. Over 4kg is specialised for semi target or long range.
Gizmos: needs sling. Suppressor optional. Bipod is specialised for a minority of hunting and capability to fit one is not essential. Dialup sights and parallax not essential.
kimber. with a. montana.
Seen many grown men flinch with a .308 and 150 grain bullets, god help them if given a 30-06 running 180 grain pills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagheera
Many will remember that the .222 held benchrest world records for a long time, at 200m and under I'd either have that or the 223 (my rifle).
The .243 that I am building (Howa Alpine) could be good at to 3-400m odd with some tweaking, once the barrel burns out I might get a slightly fatter contour with faster twist put on.
You will always need to compromise somewhere, better to know your own limits and that of your equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagheera
'All rounders' will never work as good as something specialised.
Anyone know if you can get a Browning Xbolt in 6.8 Western in N.Z yet? That would be it for me, suppressed with some euro glass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagheera
No firearm will ever survive that with an owner who is ignorant/slack on bore maintenance
Really? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by nor-west
i can understand, just to be different and sort of kind of a little bit cooler than the rest..... but fuck thats a Glorified 270 Winchester if ive ever read about it.
in which its not a 270 WSM :)
sounds gooooooooooood, Sorta, only because the 270 WIN is AWESOME and the 270 WSM is pretty good not bad little bit more Thanks....
but i agree, 6.8 sounds better as
They come with a 1/ 7.5 twist barrel more projectile optionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Rees
True on the flinching, but not a reason to back off, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by caberslash
Recoil is the reason an extra light (<3.5kg) rifle isn't an all rounder.
My limited observation is that in merrie England (not so sure for Scotland) the focus is on Roe and Sika deer, while outer liers are foxes, muntjac and Red ? It seemed to me that the 243 would be an ideal all rounder there. What are your thoughts ?
With the hassle of getting extensions to your FAC for additional rifles, I'd think the British might be the world experts in choosing an all rounder.
Interesting about the barrel burning out. The 243 has a pretty big case for the calibre - like a small sized magnum. What sort of life do people get ?
nearly perfect for me too, I would really like the floor plate they have on the wood stocked models fitted to my carbon stocks but in practice the blind mag works "good enough"Quote:
Originally Posted by Rees
Greetings Nor-west,Quote:
Originally Posted by nor-west
After the initial splurge the 6.8 Western had just about disappeared without trace and I had all but forgotten about it. Thanks for reminding me.
Regards Grandpamac.
Mediocre shooting will always produce mediocre results. Add more recoil and the results become dreadful. The only fix for mediocre shooting is practice on targets, not animals. One reason I mourn the demise of 4P shooting in NZ. Putting 5 shots in a tiny group prone of a bipod tells you nothing about how well you can shoot even from sitting let alone standing. Actually shooting the positions does. Far back in this thread I suggested that the ability of the hunter to learn to shoot the rifle well was an important attribute for any rifle. That appears to have been lost along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by mimms2
Regards Grandpamac. Resident curmudgoen and H.O.F.
By mediocre I mean middle of the road competent, not poor or useless.
Merriam Webster: Synonyms
common, fair, indifferent, medium, middling, ordinary, passable, run-of-the-mill, run-of-the-mine (or run-of-mine), second-class, second-rate, so-so
By definition, most hunters are mediocre shooters yet can hunt ethically.
(provided they don't choose a 223 for deer)
Safety that locks the bolt so it doesn't come open when carrying slung.
My opinions. Yours may differ :)
These are all tradeable-off depending on budget and compromises. They are in addition to my “essential” features above. There isn’t one design that has all of them at once, but if you see them on a gun you’re planning for, recognise them and take them into account. Some cost a lot of money but are completely optional, so get as many as you can within your budget. A good well planned 303 can be a great all rounder.
Scope
Top brand: Leupold VX3 & VX5, Kahles, Zeiss Victory, S&B, Nightforce, Vortex Razor
Second tier: Leupold, Burris, Bushnell, Swarovski, Redfield, Zeiss Conquest, Vortex
3-12x40 or 2-8x32
Dial elevation SFP with thick reticle or FFP with MOA hash or Mildot
Parallax IF you need it to see the target clearly at different ranges ie age over 50.
Mounts:
Rugged yet elegant; plastic insert is good: Optilok ringmount, Leupold, Burris Zee
Picatinny rail as part of the action.
Bolt:
3 lug (easier quicker cycling and better clearance below scopes), Front locking, serviceable without tools, Simple cleaning, small bolt dia like Tikka or Sako 85 (many bolts have the body the same as the outside as of the locking lugs – just a waste of space and weight), no external Mauser like extractor claw, short lock time.
Action:
Sized to chosen calibre with generous length for COAL, eg Sako 85 has a range of 6 sizes.
Trigger adjustable around 1000g, crisp, zero creep or backlash (close to essential). Reliable safety allows unloading without switch to fire. Quiet to reload from mag. Half open bolt position, especially cock on closing like SMLE. Controlled feed to allow ejection of a partially chambered round. Seals against snow, rain and dirt. Left handed if you are left eye dominant.
Magazine: drop out box, 5+ shots, dismantle and clean without tools, excellent feed, Ability to top load is very good - a major drawback of the Tikka. Dropping a round on, to fall forward into the chamber doesn't count.
Barrel: 18-22”, stainless (greater margin for sub par maintenance and long days of dampness), standard twist for middle of the range bullet weights eg 130-160gr in 308. Medium contour or light if long. No fluting or carbon wrap. Recessed crown to reduce damage. Dark colour eg grey non reflective, phosphatised or blued. No opinion on suppressor. If you have one it should be light and small and the barrel shorter like 18 or 20”. Modules and dismantleability are good.
Cartridge: factory ammo commonly available in shops, modern design suitable for longer bullets if needed eg creedmore, taper allowing good feed, no rim, belt or rebate. Great bullets available eg 7mm, 30 cal.
Stock: carbon fibre is the most desirable but good synthetic is OK. Textured surface is good for grip. Camo pattern would be worthwhile if durable.
More comfort and fit is best. Palm swell and cheekpiece (my preference). Adjustable dimensions add weight and bits to get caught in the scrub. Ambidexterous use if you want it.
Sling: easily detachable, flush mount, not thercommon protruding knob, not screw in only, needs through bolt with washer specially on foreend. Grippy surface. Narrow, light 1” only, holds minimal water when wet, strong
Some "interesting" preferences/opinions there that would vary markedly from many of us. Not sure how Swarovski is inferior to Leupold VX3 or Vortex.
BTW, parallax adjustment is nothing to do with ageing eyes
Hell, I'd say the Sauer 101 is the closest to this ever increasing list...basically a Tikka with top loading. oh, hang on... the dipsticks dont make it in stainless!
