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Are combination guns (drillings) which feature two rifled barrels in addition to a smoothbore barrel, legal on public land?
Something like a .222/30-06/12 guage would be ideal. Can use the .222 on hares, rabbits and possums, and the 30-06 for larger game (like Moas and Haast Eagles).
I'm only after the two rifled barrels, but I don't think you can get combination guns without the shotgun function? Is there such a thing as a double rifle with different sized bores?
Greetings Frodo,
Don't know about legality, best check with DoC. You can get an over and under, shot gun and hunting rifle with a small calibre on the side. These have a fancy name I can't remember at the moment. Used to be a standard in Germany. Finding one will be difficult and paying for it afterward more so. If you find one PLEASE post pictures.
Regards in Anticipation Grandpamac.
Blaser Bock-drilling BD14 Google it.
Grandpamac.
Hi Grandpamac,Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpamac
Thanks for your reply. That might be the best way to go (asking DOC). Just thought somebody here may have already been down this path.
There are some very fine (and expensive) combination guns out there. Although Blaser makes the BD14 (photos attached below), which can be had for under $10k 2nd-hand. They only weigh around 7.5 lbs.
Another option is a switch barrel rifle, but these aren't as practical. You often don't know what type of game will pop up (especially on public land). So putting on a specific barrel in anticipation of a certain type of game isn't the most reliable method.
You bet me to it! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpamac
No point in asking DoC - they have no bloody idea! My mate went through this using a 7x57/12g, hunted with it a bit on Public Conservation Land, got spoken to on a couple of occasions by a very enthusiastic DoC dickhead, told he wasn't allowed to use it. He went straight back to Plod, asked him, he said it is classed as a rifle [centrefire] so therefore can be used anywhere it is legal to use a rifle, just because it has a 12g barrel attached to it, does not make it a shotgun. And if a DoC person, for want of a better term, approached you, Im pretty sure they would have no bloody idea what you were holding in your hand. They certainly cant take it off you, they dont have the jurisdiction, it needs to be Plod. They certainly dont have the right to touch it or look at it cos they may not have a firearms license. And if you have no shotgun ammo in it, they cant do anything.
Haha! I thought that would be the case @Husky1600. Knowledge of the law is variable enough among members of the Police, yet alone DOC...
I don't do any hunting on private land, so it would be a shame to spend big on a firearm that then ends up being illegal to use. Hence why I'm asking around.
I've just sent DOC an email. It'll be interesting to hear their take, but I won't hold my breath.
"Im pretty sure they would have no bloody idea what you were holding in your hand" - Good point. And most of them can be broken down and thrown inside a backpack. Out of sight out of mind. :)
I have a thing about the weird, wacky and wonderful. These qualify.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo
Grandpamac.
On a page im a member of a guy had a double rifle and the left barrel was 7x57 mauser and right barrel was 458 Lott
Valmet do/did one. Don't know where to get one or how much though.
I had a Valmet 412 in the 80's, with a couple of shottie barrel-sets, a 308 double rifle and a 222/12ga combo.
The 308 barrels got taken hunting a few times, they shot well and were good fun on goats in the Catlins bush where you only ever got one or two shots (and none of us had semi's except a guy called Mike who had an Armalite AR18 as I recall, but I think it might have been a tiny bit "illegal").
The 222/12 ga was something else again, the 222 shot as well as any subsequent 222 or 223 bolt gun I've had, pretty consistently round the 1/2 moa mark. I shot hundreds of Wallabies with it, was ideal for wandering round the coast side of the Hunters, wallabies from close in in the bush to +300M were goners.
The 243/20ga combo that was on TM recently tempted me severely . . .
There is heaps of options in combation guns, and if you spend enough, you can get what ever you desire, made.
I've got a fair safari SxS in a double rifle, 7x57R, and 9.3x74 barrel sets and 20ga barrels, A small bore double rifle is properly a better hunting weapon, given that legal hunted game birds, are in short supply, in most public hunting areas, of New Zealand,
I was quite keen on a combo, sum thing like a 20ga and 6.5x57 or 7x57, and a extra barrel set in .222 or hornet with 20ga,
have a look here, for combos, https://www.tradeexcanada.com/produits/69
The Tikkas in 12 x .222 are cheap enough that ive considered them, but I think the best pick is the two J.P. Sauers, in 6.5x57 or 6.5 x55
Interesting Tentman.how much did that Trade me one go for?
I was in the Lewis Pass many years ago with a Winchester M70 African in .458 Magnum. I was getting my gear together to head up the Nina when a DOC ranger arrived, had a look at the .458 and said 'That's a funny looking shotgun' then got in his truck and drove away. Probably not the sharpest tool in the DOC box!
Had my 416 in my mates gunsafe when we doing a bit of shooting together.
he went to get the shotgun out one morning and grabbed the 416 by the barrel as it is a bit shotgun sized. Still half asleep so it wasn't until he got it into the light he realised his mistake.
If you've got the money anything is possible :P
If you don't want to sell a kidney and your firstborn, then you're probably best off finding a Cape Gun (O/U or SxS) in a large rifle caliber for one barrel and shotgun on the other, then getting a krieghoff einstecklauf insert in a small game caliber that locks into the shotgun barrel. The einstecklauf inserts are incredible accurate and can be regulated to aim with your rifle sights at a set distance. They also lock into the chamber with a little key and have a built in extractor that is controlled by the shotgun barrel extractor/ejector. They're usually in .22, .22WMR but they are around in other cartridges as well.
Probably for your purposes a CZ over/under in 12 gauge/7x57 or 308 is the best bet. They can be had relatively cheaply, especially if you import one, and you won't die inside when it gets scratched or bumped like you would with a Drilling.
Only thing I don't like is that most Drillings and Cape guns aren't all that easy to take apart, and somehow I attract rain on my hunts, so you now have an expensive gun that spends a week soaking wet.... no good in my books.
I've also been trying to sort out DOC's position on this, and when I can find people who can understand the question it's "If you don't have rimfire/shotgun ammo with you at the time, then you're not shooting a shotgun/rimfire". They may try to come after you, but it would be a difficult argument to make that you were hunting with a rimfire/shotgun without any ammo for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husky1600
more to the point as I understand as long as you aren't carrying any 12g ammo then it's ok (if you are carrying 12g ammo then obviously the implication is there is likely the intent to use it), then again if you are out during waterfowl season and hold a F & G license then maybe you could justify it....
Wow! @canross So you could own a SXS shotgun, and with those einstecklauf inserts, turn it into a double barrelled centerfire (in whatever calibre(s) you desire)? And come duck season, you remove the inserts...and voila? Seems too good to be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by canross
Only issue with those traditional drillings/cape guns is the soldered barrels. Regulation involves either messing with the load, or having to resolder the barrels. Whereas the modern drillings by the likes of Blaser have their barrels held together in a clamp-type system with adjustable screws. So as far as I understand, the positions of the barrels are user adjustable, and this negates the need to mess with loads etc.
Re: rain/harsh hunting conditions...I've only got experience with bolt guns (which are a piece of cake to rip apart at the end of the day and do maintenance on). I've always wondered how kipplauf style singleshots and double rifles/drillings fair in inclement weather. I know you can break them apart (take the fore end off, and seperate the action from the barrel), but what if water gets into the hinge release mechanism or soaks onto the stock between the metal/wood?
My main priority is having a versatile firearm/calibre for pinging small game in addition to large game. I'm not exactly fixated on drillings, but I like how they offer you the flexibility of multiple cartridges.
In a perfect world, it would be legal to take a small take-down .22 LR or shotgun on public land, but that's too convenient. :) Not worth risking losing your license over.
Just buy a 223. Shoot big stags, shoot bunnies. Dont have to walk about with a rifle that looks like some kind of chinese puzzle.
I recieved a reply from DOC regarding combination guns:
"Thank you for your enquiry.
I use to own a BRNO 12ga / 7 x 75R combination rifle that I regularly used for hunting on Public Lands.
Apart from ensuring I had a hunting permit, also did not carry any shotgun cartridges when on public lands. Just 7 x 75R ammunition.
If approached by a Ranger I was prepared to demonstrate that I did not have any shotgun ammunition with me and could not use the shotgun part of the combination rifle when hunting on Public Lands.
Hope this answers your question and happy hunting"
I have one in 7x57R over 12G fun to use,00 in the 12G for tight stuff snap shot,7mm for longer stuff.Also being a Baikal handy if your truck shits an axle.Quote:
Originally Posted by mimms2
so if you had a .12ga barrel and another of a useful centrefire.....you COULD put a barrel insert in the other....in a centrefire of some sort......anything from .45/70 down to say .45apc and be legal ASLONG as its more than .222remington to comply with DOC minimum calibre levels.... the .45 long colt with say a 12'' rifled barrel would be very useful....it would be great for finishing shots,hares,possums close goats etc.
Two different calibers will shoot to different impact point,have two different trajectories and be a giant pain in the arse.
Drilling/combination guns are a way of getting "two guns in one" for organised driven European Hunts.The Rifle might be used for shots just out of shotgun range,not shooting Deer at 100m.
They arnt designed to be carried far,they are bloody heavy.
My advise would be to get a decent used rifle fitted with a custom stock and practice untill you can hit running rabbits using open sights.
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They aren't that heavy. DOC give out small game permits if asked, and rumor has it that there is more than one path to enlightenment, or way to skin a cat, or something.
And even better this one is "Links Schaft " and modernQuote:
Originally Posted by Ross Nolan
Two Rifle barrels,shotgun barrel and a scope makes for å heavy gun.
@norsk Sure doesQuote:
Originally Posted by norsk
That long 300m carry to the tree stand and nose bleeding climb to your seat is as hard as it gets.
Being kiwis we want to re purpose something for our hunting that evolved for an entirely different purpose.
That's also why they have scopes with enormous objective lenses to pick up the very last light or to shoot fox over the snow in darkness.
I'm grappling with the challenge of keeping the weight of my 45-70 double rifle build down to whats still a practical weight to carry all day.
That's why the barrels have reasonably big holes in them !
On benefit with the drilling layout that does keep weight down a little is that the double shotgun barrels ( usually 16 gauge ) mean that the single rifle barrel underneath can actually be drinking straw thin
years ago I saw article in???rod n rifle guy had a bruno U/Owith two sets of barrels...1 of 12ga and other in .45/70 the idea has always apealed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by norsk
I'm no longer pursuing the idea of combo gun. Just more trouble than it's worth.
The trajectory thing is a valid point to consider.
Cheers.
I think you should keep pursuing the idea, surely someone makes/made a combo gun with half a dozen different barrels to cover all bases. 22lr, .223, 7x57r, 7x65r, 12ga, 410ga, perfect combo in one handy packageQuote:
Originally Posted by Frodo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So you want to be my caddie (following me around the bush with a bag full of barrels and a wrench)? I really like that idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL
What else can you do? What about making sandwiches and cups of tea? :D
Greetings Frodo,Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo
All sorts of interesting ideas form in the minds of those of us lucky enough to own, use and enjoy firearms. Some fade forever but others return again and again, in some form, unhindered by any decision we may make in our conscious mind. I suspect your Bock drilling idea may be one of the latter. My recurring idea has been single shot rifles, Ruger No 1's in particular. While a Ruger No 1 has not appeared in the cupboard to date a .30-40 Martini and a Bergara break open .308 have and will probably suffice. Enjoy the journey you mind takes you on and please update us from time to time.
Regards Grandpamac.
Our be like @Ryan_Songhurst and go from.270 to .375 and blow stuff up gang:sick::XD:;):thumbsup: dead is dead but then along came Ryan and added spread to the mix:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
I consider it very versatile. I could shoot a hare. I could shoot an elephant. Ready for any eventualityQuote:
Originally Posted by Sideshow
Hay ryan, you shot a deer yet with you new cannon, one of the things I discovered with my first med bore, (9.3x62) was it didn't blood shot and bruise, as much meat. and they tend to be very accurate, at least the two 9.3s and .358 win I have are, three or four shots, one raggered hole at 100m is normal.
Despite my moniker 9.3x62 the king of calibres, 375 H&H the prince/pretender....��
Greetings Frodo,
I see that Baikal does over and under .223 and 12 gauge over 7.62 x 39, both available in NZ. Thought of getting a 7.62 x 39 single shot and re chambering to .303 Brit at one stage. Likely someone has done it.
Regards Grandpamac.
Here is my latest iteration of the pack(able) rifle. Its a TC Encore in 308. The Contenders frame is a bit smaller and lighter but not really suitable for high intensity .473 boltface cartridges. The one is shortened to 21" and as pictured with the Weaver Super Slam 2-8x36 scope (these are very very nice, better I think than the VX3i although a wee bit heavier) and supressor is 3.5 Kgs. It will be going on a further diet once I've shot it a bit more. The main reason I went for an Encore was the trigger, with a spring kit its probly the best single shot trigger out there (short of spending $5K plus).
Takedown is provided by one of @akaroa1 's developments, its a frame screw, and as you can see its the same length taken down as a walking pole (less than 65 cm)
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Nice try tentman+ :D! Just because it breaks down into two bits! its not a combo/ double. I did like your thread on the Valmet.
Australia was a place for combo's in the 70s! so the thought of a light weight unit comes to mind a few times a year as you know.
But it's getting harder to shoot what I do have in the safe.
KH
The small game permit was how I got around using a 22 Hornet, the local DOC office has now decided not to issue them, don't know why, office lady said the issuing was at the discretion of the area manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Nolan
