From E-Cat to A-Cat?

Some good ideas in this thread, particularly agree that the minimum storage requirements need to be reviewed. Firearms should be stored in a steel safe.

I also was really surprised to see that there's no form of competency test as part of the FAL process. I.e. knowing and being to demonstrate how to safely handle, operate and store a firearm(s).

One doesn't get a driver licence for a vehicle without learning how to drive and control it and demonstrating that one can do so safely.

Apart from that - the current system is pretty good. "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".

Some good points raised.

Shooting in the 3 gun matches my club runs, does make a mockery of the E cat rules, with A cat shotgun tubes holding 12 rounds etc. Everyone has a 30rnd AR mag.... The club is now looking from the outside in and are heading along the lines of enforcing the E Cat rules and the illegal A cat firearms.

My question now is, how do we get our A cat firearms to be E cat registered? I have asked and get told 'its not a simple process'. Can someone enlighten me?

Is it as simple as paying large sums to purchase a registered E cat firearm to continue shooting 3 gun? not many will be able to do this, what future is there for this sport if so?

What difference does it make if there are more MSSA's registered on the system? The person registering the firearm will still need to be E endorsed and meet the E cat requirments??

My 2 cents

Scrap E, it's worthless banning based on fear of cosmetic features and does not have any benefit

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Originally Posted by Baz

Some good points raised.

Shooting in the 3 gun matches my club runs, does make a mockery of the E cat rules, with A cat shotgun tubes holding 12 rounds etc. Everyone has a 30rnd AR mag.... The club is now looking from the outside in and are heading along the lines of enforcing the E Cat rules and the illegal A cat firearms.

My question now is, how do we get our A cat firearms to be E cat registered? I have asked and get told 'its not a simple process'. Can someone enlighten me?Is it as simple as paying large sums to purchase a registered E cat firearm to continue shooting 3 gun? not many will be able to do this, what future is there for this sport if so?

What difference does it make if there are more MSSA's registered on the system? The person registering the firearm will still need to be E endorsed and meet the E cat requirments??

My 2 cents

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Just wait till June. Then your A-Cat AR will be an E-Cat! ;)

Wonder what that will make my A-cat ones that I have import permits for.

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Originally Posted by Baz

My question now is, how do we get our A cat firearms to be E cat registered? I have asked and get told 'its not a simple process'. Can someone enlighten me?

Is it as simple as paying large sums to purchase a registered E cat firearm to continue shooting 3 gun? not many will be able to do this, what future is there for this sport if so?

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I have never done this so take what i say next with a grain of salt (so to speak).
I have seen pest control guys registering and then converting A-Cat shotguns to E-Cat. The owner obviously needs the E endoirsement and then needs to explain to the AO the reason for the change. For the guys i was talking to they were part of a DoC hunt team and culling goats from the helicopter. It was simple enough to demonstrate that to the local AO.

For guys shooting 3gun i would have thought the explaination to the AO would be pretty straight forward. Like the guys who compete in service rifle competitions. To be really competitive in service class you need an E cat semiauto. This is sufficient reason for them to be given a permit to procure (forgetting the stupid hand in thing) and therefore should be sufficient reason to convert an A-Cat to E-Cat.

Is the stupid hand-in thing still "a thing" ?? Because it was very, very stupid.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Scrap E, it's worthless banning based on fear of cosmetic features and does not have any benefit

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That's incorrect, they are restricted because of certain types of people that are attracted to the cosmetic features of certain firearms, not because of peoples fear of them. Since they're only cosmetic features you would have thought there would have been very little problem, however the pistol grip is a little more than cosmetic.

Using peoples irrational fear as the base of your argument will not work as peoples fear isn't the reasoning behind the restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Savage1

That's incorrect, they are restricted because of certain types of people that are attracted to the cosmetic features of certain firearms, not because of peoples fear of them. Since they're only cosmetic features you would have thought there would have been very little problem, however the pistol grip is a little more than cosmetic.

Using peoples irrational fear as the base of your argument will not work as peoples fear isn't the reasoning behind the restrictions.

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It literally is irrational fear, because "some murderers are attracted to these types of gun" doesn't hold up for shit when it's only a tiny tiny fraction of murderers who use them, even when they're freely available to them

Ban knives, 'cos waaaay more people are "attracted to them" than to E-cat style rifles, they must be because they account for a massive amount more crimes



E: We've done this like ten times, let's take it to PM if you want to continue 'cos it's really getting old on the forum and just goes in circles, you've got your beliefs, I've got mine

I'm not arguing for or against, just pointing out the flaw in your argument. I would actually support the scrapping of E catagory IF the current FAL was harder to get and harder to keep.

You can't use knifes as an example, if there was a E-Cat on every kitchen bench how do you think that would affect the murder rates for knife vs E-Cat. Knives are more easily obtainable by anyone hence the higher rate of use in crime. I would think the restrictions on firearm ownership has a direct link to how often they're used in crime.

Yes the current FAL should be harder to get, there should be more education requirements for it and better security requirements.


If someone isn't appropriate to own a rifle with a folding stock or a larger magazine or a bayonet lug (haha) then they shouldn't have ANY gun at all, and if they intend to break the law by killing people (which is what we all want to prevent with the laws at the end of the day) realistically they're not going to care if they have an illegal gun to do it.

E cat just means that I can't have cool shit without stuff like the incredibly bullshit handin policy. It certainly didn't stop Jaan Molenaar having a bunch of illegal E cats.

Step 1: Buy an A cat (insert semi auto rifle here)

Step 2: Buy a 30 round mag

E cat rules by passed.

Step 3: 30 round isn't really any more inherently dangerous anyway.
Step 4: Make 30 round mags require a license to buy
Step 5: lol unenforceable and it's not hard to make mags, and it'd be a joke to smuggle them in, I haven't had my luggage inspected in any way in the last 30+ trips through customs except once when I said I had dirt on my boots and they gave them a wash for me.

From what I understand, the hand in thing is history IF you can come up with a damn good reason to import. My friend recently imported a complete E cat Spikes Tactical lower and a stripper 10/22 receiver on E cat. Only reason he did this was because they wouldn't put one of his A cat AR lowers onto E cat, or his 10/22, cuz it would set a precedent or some shit. They gave him import permits for the E cats though. Go figure.

I've got a Saiga 7.62x39 and an ammo box full of A cat mags (like 14 or something). Takes 2 seconds to change them, same firepower all up as like 3 30 rounders, and they can be converted to hold more than 7 rounds if you were that way inclined (as with the majority of A cat semi auto mags).

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Originally Posted by Savage1

You can't use knifes as an example, if there was a E-Cat on every kitchen bench how do you think that would affect the murder rates for knife vs E-Cat. Knives are more easily obtainable by anyone hence the higher rate of use in crime. I would think the restrictions on firearm ownership has a direct link to how often they're used in crime.

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The point is that, in the USA:
-in most states an AR for example is easy to get - just go and buy it
-if they're a felon and can't pass a background check in a store it's still not hard to get if you just go and buy one face-to-face in a private transfer eg the retardedly named and misunderstood "gunshow loophole"
-if "these type of guns" attract "the wrong sort of people" then surely "the wrong sort of people" would make that minor effort to get them
-Overall murder rate with all rifles is less than 4% in the USA, that's not "ARs" or "MSSAs" it's "All rifles"
-Clearly not too many murders are making the minimal effort that they'd have to make to get those guns if they really were all attracted to them any more than they are to any weapon.

I think "the wrong sort of person" is attracted to any weapon, none more so than others really

"the wrong sort of person" in Boston was attracted to a pressure cooker full of cut up fireworks

I don't even use them but they were cheap so I bought heaps with the idea that when I get E cat I'll convert them to hold as many rounds as they will function with.

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Originally Posted by Beavis

I've got a Saiga 7.62x39 and an ammo box full of A cat mags (like 14 or something). Takes 2 seconds to change them, same firepower all up as like 3 30 rounders, and they can be converted to hold more than 7 rounds if you were that way inclined (as with the majority of A cat semi auto mags).

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I accidentally cut too much off the bottom one of the followers when converting my shit 5rd mags to shit 7rd mags. So I had a shit 8rd mag, and had to get a new follower for it, because I was obeying the law. If I wasn't obeying the law I could have plenty of shit ~10rd mags without ever having to show my license in the case of making >7 mags E license required

Why the hell did they settle on 7 rounds anyway? It's so incredibly inconvenient, almost nobody makes a 7 round mag. 10rd A-cat limit pleeeease.

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Originally Posted by gimp

I accidentally cut too much off the bottom one of the followers when converting my shit 5rd mags to shit 7rd mags. So I had a shit 8rd mag, and had to get a new follower for it, because I was obeying the law. If I wasn't obeying the law I could have plenty of shit 10rd mags without ever having to show my license in the case of making >7 mags E license required

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Your problem is you are applying logic to a system written by dipshits who don't know what they're talking about

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Originally Posted by gimp

The point is that, in the USA:
-in most states an AR for example is easy to get - just go and buy it
-if they're a felon and can't pass a background check in a store it's still not hard to get if you just go and buy one face-to-face in a private transfer eg the retardedly named and misunderstood "gunshow loophole"
-if "these type of guns" attract "the wrong sort of people" then surely "the wrong sort of people" would make that minor effort to get them
-Overall murder rate with all rifles is less than 4% in the USA, that's not "ARs" or "MSSAs" it's "All rifles"
-Clearly not too many murders are making the minimal effort that they'd have to make to get those guns if they really were all attracted to them any more than they are to any weapon.

I think "the wrong sort of person" is attracted to any weapon, none more so than others really

"the wrong sort of person" in Boston was attracted to a pressure cooker full of cut up fireworks

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The USA is hard to use as an example as pistols are so easily obtained over there making firearms crime up but rifle specific crime lower. It's shown that the people that go on rampages either get or try to get Military styled weapons.

To be honest I don't think the USA is any kind of example to follow, but it would be stupid not to observe and learn from any mistakes they have made.

Enough from me.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Why the hell did they settle on 7 rounds anyway? It's so incredibly inconvenient, almost nobody makes a 7 round mag. 10rd A-cat limit pleeeease.

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7 rounds certainly made it impossible to keep your prized WW2/Korean War era M1 Garand in anywhere near original spec unlesss you had it on E-Cat.

Bayonet lug (since when did mass killers have a rifle bayonet as a key weapon of choice?) = gone
8 round mag/clip (whatever) = gone

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Originally Posted by Savage1

The USA is hard to use as an example as pistols are so easily obtained over there making firearms crime up but rifle specific crime lower. It's shown that the people that go on rampages either get or try to get Military styled weapons.

To be honest I don't think the USA is any kind of example to follow, but it would be stupid not to observe and learn from any mistakes they have made.

Enough from me.

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I don't think it is shown. A "MSSA" is realistically as easy to get in the USA as a pistol, if not easier (state laws, age requirements for pistols). If mass shooters and murderers were really that attracted to them, they'd be used more frequently, but hardly any of the mass shootings have used them.

I don't think we should follow the US in a lot of ways either.

I also don't think that a person who can't be trusted to have a folding stock or bayonet lug (lol) on their gun should be trusted with ANY gun. If the E cat vetting process is supposed to keep those people out, why doesn't the A cat?? Where's the difference? I don't want someone who can't be trusted to have a flash hider (lol) to be able to have ANY gun.

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Originally Posted by dogmatix

7 rounds made it impossible to keep your prized WW2/Korean War era M1 Garand in anywhere near original spec unlesss you had it on E-Cat.

Bayonet lug (since when did mass killers have a rifle bayonet as a key weapon of choice?) = gone
8 round mag/clip (whatever) - gone

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Lol as if anyone going on a rampage is going to choose a 4 foot long rifle that weighs 12 pounds

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Originally Posted by Savage1

The USA is hard to use as an example as pistols are so easily obtained over there making firearms crime up but rifle specific crime lower. It's shown that the people that go on rampages either get or try to get Military styled weapons.

To be honest I don't think the USA is any kind of example to follow, but it would be stupid not to observe and learn from any mistakes they have made.

Enough from me.

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Rampages??? How many mass killing deaths in the USA within the last year? Sandyhook, Colarado! Add the deaths from these mass killings and others the last year and do we get 100 deaths-maybe? Then divide that by the population of the USA.

Now what do we get. The number is so miniscal that are these AR15 killing machines really the killers we are lead to believe???

Drink driving, stabbings, drug over dose, cycling etc etc. All individually would have a higher percentage of killings per capita in the USA than assault rifle type of thingies used in rampages.

But cause they are black they must be bad (racist society maybe?)

Its time society stopped believing what ever spin CNN and the movie makers put on the world and start to open there eyes. Any type of firearm in a responsible persons hands are NO threat at all. In the hands of a hater and nut job then yes a gun just as a car, knife, or pressure cooker can be used for harm.

I wish the idiots in power will stop restricting my freedoms due to the actions of the nut jobs.

Damn im more scared of idiot drivers in this country as they kill more people a year than MSSA rifles do!!!

Cheers

I think there is a stronger correlation between mental instability and mass shootings, rather than AR's. They all use different guns, but what do the vast majority of them have in common? Psychological issues and the meds they're taking. That leaves you with two courses of action - do nothing and just accept that shit happens, the cats out of the bag. Or attempt to come up with a way to reduce the chances of a disturbed individual going postal or harming people in other ways. going by raw statistics, mass shooting deaths are a tiny proportion of violent deaths, it barely registers in the grand scheme of things.

Reducing the freedoms of a blanket and poorly-defined "mentally ill people" is just an incentive for them not to seek treatment though. It's tricky.


E: amongst other problems but I'm too lazy to talk about this one right now

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Originally Posted by Littledog

I wish the idiots in power will stop restricting my freedoms due to the actions of the nut jobs.

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whats worse is they restricting our freedoms in reaction to nut jobs in a different country governed by completely different laws.

I do agree with most ppl here, that the FAL should be harder to get, and if u are a 'fit and proper person' you should be for any type of firearm. with exception to pistols due to their concealability i guess.
also think that firearm security should be steel container of stout construction minimum.

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Originally Posted by Haydendev

also think that firearm security should be steel container of stout construction minimum.

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Yep.


Pistols should be harder to get than a rifle, but you should be able to do more with them. I want to go handgun hunting with a S&W 629!!

Don't make any rash decisions is all ill say...

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Originally Posted by Haydendev

whats worse is they restricting our freedoms in reaction to nut jobs in a different country governed by completely different laws.

I do agree with most ppl here, that the FAL should be harder to get, and if u are a 'fit and proper person' you should be for any type of firearm. with exception to pistols due to their concealability i guess.
also think that firearm security should be steel container of stout construction minimum.

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It was actually a nut job in our country that bought about the restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Savage1

It was actually a nut job in our country that bought about the restrictions.

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Grey?

Yup, my history in this department isn't to great but I'm pretty sure the restrictions came about as a reaction to the Aramoana incident.

Cops had a go at banning AR, AK imports pre Aramoana I think.

Does anybody have a "semi concrete" view as to whether the likes of a a 10-22 or SKS in drag style stock is going to become all evil and shit with the new law?

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Originally Posted by Cyclist

Does anybody have a "semi concrete" view as to whether the likes of a a 10-22 or SKS in drag style stock is going to become all evil and shit with the new law?

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I'm just guessing but I have to guess "almost definitely" given the silly relentless ban agenda



e: they should be banned for being terrible anyway

just want the cheapest way to get my e (that can be sent back to a if it goes to shit)

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Originally Posted by Beavis

Cops had a go at banning AR, AK imports pre Aramoana I think.

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Correct, it got overturned in court and then Aramona happened.

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Originally Posted by gimp

they should be banned for being terrible anyway

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Went and had a fiddle on the ATI / Choate pistol grip stocks and just about barfed on the floor, soooooo depressing

Left with an Anschutz RX22 for only about $300 more - its a pretty damn fun gun (now to be know as and referred to as the the coonsterminator)

Attachment 9428

Representative group shot with the cheapest ammo available = might be a keeper :P

Pitty about the trigger that feels like two bits of wood being dragged over concrete :)