This shows why.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diFgAlRbi-A
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This shows why.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diFgAlRbi-A
Worked for a landed gent in Scotland back in the 80's. He had a matched pair of 12 Bore Royals (marked 1 & 2) that were his fathers, which I was able to handle and admire on several occasions. These will now be in the hands of one of his sons, which is how many get passed on.
It was nice to see a thorough coverage of the skills and time required. I must have spent a quarter of my working life trying to explain to customers that I could not work to their timetable and they would have to adjust to mine! I once had a 'landed gentry' type who bought in a 1920's H&H Royal with a broken stock. He said 'Pop a new stock on that please. I will be back about 3pm!' He got it back 6 months later, and even then I was rushing it to fit it in around all my other jobs. One of my staff, the late Jon Jones, was apprenticed as an actioner at H&H where he stayed for 11 years. H&H made me very welcome when I visited them in 1989 and gave me the full tour. It is a pleasure to work on guns of that quality but only when the customer fully understands the time involved to produce top-notch results.
My dad recently purchased a 12g H&h 120 year old shotgun. It’s pretty cool I did a couple days clay and duck shooting with it this year and he did a couple days pheasant shooting with it. Awesome to shoot ejects so we’ll just fires them out.
Just looked on their website, $260,000 for a break open rifle?????
I got my Baikal for $150, suckers...
Attachment 79027
Paid $100 for my 12g.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
They do look. Preeeeeeety though
Thats a pretty diverse comparison Ryan. Their Range Rover wouldn't be covered in cow shit & mud either :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
It would however be covered in oil that it has leaked...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias
Ahh, but it would be virgin, sustainably extracted and harvested using local labour....but yes, it would be leaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
I think they call it recycling these days ?
I think I would have said no worries and when he came back at 3pm I'd have duct taped a nicely figured piece of 4x2 to the tang...Quote:
Originally Posted by gundoc
I had the good luck to shoot on several occasions with a purdy several years ago. The gun was made in 1919 and was in slightly used condition.
It still pointed and swung better than any gun I had used before and probably since and the action was faultless and smooth as with virtually no noise on closing.
I dont know if the rabbits appreciated at the time being shot at more with a bespoke gun than my auto 5 but the results were the same.
They are works of art and if you can afford that discretionary spend and want one or a "brace" then go for it.
I recall an episode of topgear where they reviewed a top of the line range rover that had a fitted gun safe with two H&Hs in it also a bar that rover would restock for a year. James May made the interesting comment that each gun was worth more than the vehicle.
I watched that the other day. Amazing pieces of art. Things that stood out for me, 100 people employed across the business and only 75 guns made a year.
The difference,Ryan, is yours is a heap of cheap Chinese junk!:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
Russian actually Maca. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
A heap of cheap Russian junk? That’s better! Even with their tight chrome plated bores hahahahaha, built like a brick shit house, first new shotgun I bought, many yrs ago, was a 12 g U/O Baikel. :)
The top end hand made guns are really works of art, just to handle some of them is a delight, but I’m bent that way!! Purdy had on in there shop in London, I had the choice of their “Special New Zealand” model or my house in Taupo! No brainer really!!
It is a bit like expensive watches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
There are those who understand why the exist, and those who do not.
They exist to separate fools from their money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimitsu
Vulcanns, its the same with cars, the cheapest will get you there, but it's how you want to arrive. Making the choice to buy a high end gun is like buying a piece of art, only you can appreciate the beauty in it.
I once handled a J Rigby & Sons Mauser from 1909. I had always thought they would simply be a Mauser action nicely finished in a good stock. After all there was only so much you could do with one I had thought. It wasn't until I held it in my hands and worked the action that I understood the difference between a normal rifle on a Mauser action or even any modern factory rifle, and a London best rifle from a maker in the golden period of British gunmaking. I understood that there was a tier of quality above whatever I imagined could be done with a rifle that I had never suspected.
But able to speed up. H&H set up the Army's No 4 (T) snipers back in WW2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick Hunter
Buying an expensive gun like that, a sad ego trip. What a superbly and refined way to hurl handfuls of lead to down birds, blood'n'feathers everywhere.
My ego is big enough to own one. I would even put up with middle class snobs calling me sad to do it. Because I'm worth it.
Just dont quite have the money yet...
One is reminded of Philip C Bolgers comment which goes along the lines of "for somebody who doesn't have the price of a Rubens original, there may be some merit in a Playboy centerfold" (he made this comment when comparing one of his own designs to the Herreschoff "masterpiece" of yacht design "Rozinante")
I felt like that when i bought my first (and only) Sako, 85 Hunter in Walnut stock, I've cleaned the bloody thing more than ive shot it.....! :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway
before then it was a Lee Enfield, Baikal, Stevens, even a Norinco.....use a Howa for bush hunting and the Sako target shooting
@Carlsen Highway
Sorry for any offense taken, and it's true that, as @Scouser referred to, we ALL spend a lot of time (if not money) on things others may find unworthwhile.
You mention social class no offense taken as you don't know my background. But back to these guns which is more interesting . . . isn't social class what owning a H&H is about? Most gun makers are like watch makers. They don't just sell lead throwers or timekeepers -- they also sell a particular image, and the H&H image happens to be "Upper Class".
No so much these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
The price of "London Guns" has come down quite a bit.They are simply not as popular as they once were.Alot of people have become interested in Shooting and Country Sports in the UK in the last 20 years and Over and Under Shotguns are their Choice of Gun.
I was in a Gun Shop in Devon two years ago and the owner was willing to knock 50% off the price of a H&H that has been sitting on the racks for ages.The former owner having paid 50% more than the sticker price of the Gun during the 90's!
Thanks to some relations of mine, I had the chance over my years in Europe to handle and shoot some guns made by those prestigious houses and some made by less known makers but of equal or superior finish.
New, these guns fetch a bit of money way beyond what the average man can afford, but there is still a second hand market that can make some these makes a bit more affordable.
Doesn’t buying them second hand defeat the whole purpose of a custom made London Best gun?Quote:
Originally Posted by Friwi
Seems a bit pointless spending that much for a gun that doesn’t fit you perfectly and have all the exact options you want?
How’s your custom fitted baikal going?Quote:
Originally Posted by Proudkiwi
Depends on your reasons for buying one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proudkiwi
You might just want one,or the one you want happens to fit your perfectly (something unlikely with a factory Gun),perhaps you just want a piece of art that you can take out and shoot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
Cordite, there was no offence taken.
Isn't social class what owning a Holland and Holland about? Its a more interesting question than at first it seems.
What a buyer is doing is buying a perception of quality.
While there were upper class people in the world who owned guns made by legendary makers, the legendary makers did not become legendary simply because upper class aristocrats bought their guns. There are associations with that kind of past world I grant you, but the reason why that is is because of the guns high level of quality and bespoke fitting, which is why they were purchased by that part of society in the first place.
Today, these guns are symbols of a level of craftsmanship that is mostly in the past. ONe must consider them in context; for a community that is fed material goods by businesses that are based on affordable mass-produced factory items, it is hard for us to recall that in years past there was no such options. In 1909 the firearms offered in the commonwealth were of two kinds - cheap or poor quality, or those based on sporterised service rifles, or high quality makers with famous names, like Westley RIchards, Holland and Holland, Thomas Bland, John Rigby&Sons, Fraser of Edinborough and so forth. There was very little middle ground in those days, and we are spoilt for choice today by comparison. One didn't have to be upper class to want to buy a Holland and Holland in those days. All one had to want was a quality gun. They demonstrate custom quality of the highest tier, and associations with traditional shooting and hunting. (But I grant you, shooting and hunting in England in years past was indeed a pastime conducted by an upper class and the wealthy, so they have the aura of that past era. )
Today, is owning a H&H gun only to try and buy some image of being feaux upper class? I dont deny that H&H try and sell guns bases on associations with an upper class image. Certainly that is modern marketing, aimed at modern wealthy people and reinforces the notion of quality and desireability with past ideas of class. (Many of them American buyers, I believe, who have a fascination for the English upper classes)
But really the answer is no, it doesn't mean that you have pretensions of being upper class just because you want a Holland and Holland, just an appreciation for quality, a love of old school rifles and historical tradition.
Unless you do, of course.
This is who I would get a rifle from if I won lotto http://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/?lang=en fraction of a cost of an H&H, but not a fraction of the quality.
Yes I know them. I might too. But I would think hard about Westley Richards too...
It’s mean!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL
It’s a perfect match for my custom toz complete with rev rog suppressor.
I feel like a high roller when I’m using them. Expensive, but I’m worth it.....
Most of H&H sales go to the states....you hear it in the video where he says "28 gauge U/O perfect for walk up quail"!
For those of you that feel that these guns are out of reach....there is a very good second hand market i.e. Holts auctioneers. If you got together with a friend and brought a pair you would get your money's worth as together they are cheaper than buying a single. ps you would want number 1 as number 2 is generally shot more. Even better buy triple again cheaper across the board.
If I was to do this I'd buy Boss our Greener but that's just for my taste;)
There's a pair of H&H 12 royals lot1308 up for sale on the 14th estimated £6000 to £8000 good value right there:thumbsup:
Oh but have a look at lot1119:P Holt's Auctioneers
Haha, nae chance, what wi' ma hint a' Glasweg'un 'n' Geordy. Traditions perhaps. My great grandfather died on the Somme, perhaps dropping an Enfield like one of mine. His son drowned in the Atlantic in the next war, courtesy of the Thor. Not really glorious, more futile, but family history all the same. My Enfields, having them or not, changes nothing about where I come from, but they are a link back to real people -- none of whom were Commissioned Officers, or H&H owners with old money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway
Btw given your eloquent well reasoned answer above, who's 'middle class'?
I am your father Luke, join meeeeh!
Beautiful, and unusual. Like something steampunk that might have belonged to the captain's gun rack on somewhere severely industrial, like der Bismarck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideshow
But the retards forgot the binocular scope!
I didn't mean you specifically! I meant that one doesnt have pretensions of class because one owns a shotgun - unless one does have pretensions of class. It depends on the owner. Some people buy Porsches because they like the cars, others because they think their neighbours will be impressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
Put it this way; just because you own a .303 doesn't mean your not a snob.
I have a commission from the Queen, and was an officer at one stage, but you need more than that to be upper class!
The English class system your refering to doesnt really exist anymore. WW2 caused its death, and the Sixties finished it off. There are still vestiges of remaining, but you can no longer get hired because your carrying the right kind of umbrella...
Us NZ'rs didn't bring the class system with us, so its a foreign notion to Kiwis anyway. If your proud of being working class in NZ, it means you don't really know what working class means, for example.
Who's middle class? Basically everyone in NZ could be considered middle class, but the term becomes muddy and referenceless since society has changed so much since the 1930's. And we don't really understand the subtleties of it in this country to be honest.
(And it's a Lee Enfield. An Enfield is a muzzleloading rifle from the 19th Century.)
Binocular scope wow now that would be good unless its charging at you then there's two of the fuckers:O_O::PQuote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
What if its a P14 or a Model 1917?Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway
