Explaining Brands

Hey Guys

New too all this , just in the process of sending away for my FAl at the moment . Obviously browsing online for rifles and just wondering if you could shed some light on which brands i should be looking at ?
Been looking at 308, 270 , or 7mm08 kind of narrowed caliber choice down , but Im lost as to what brands better .

Is it a case of the more you spend the better the rifle ?
Looking to spend around the 1000-1300 ish mark for a scoped rifle

Seem to of come across a few cheaper savages for the 600 Mark , but just recently found Howa's for just over 1k new

Possibly opening a can of worms here i guess ,but just a wee bit lost
Also understand the value of scope plays a huge part in the combo too

In the off chance i do come across a great value deal , the father in-law will buy it and i'll but it off him once my applications finalised .

Thanks in advanced

Just want to be first to say TIKKA T3!

Definitely a big can of worms, lots of opinions, and lots of options.
Value for money the Howa's are hard to beat, most guys here love their ones. I can't comment on them as I haven't used one. Only thing I'd say, is that a lot of the really cheap packages seem to come with a below average scope
Savages are also hard to beat value wise, I haven't looked recently but you could get a scoped package within your budget. Some folks love the accu-trigger, I'm personally not a huge fan.

The Tikka T3 seems to be the go to rifle, for higher quality but at a reasonable price. Many folks here love them and many folks think they are over rated.
Personally I think they seem to be so popular due to good marketing and being offered as good package deals by the Big green hunting chain store.

I would recommend a Tikka, I have two and love them. The triggers are awesome, they are light weight and both my are a lot more accurate than they should be. Quite a few stores offer package deals, but if it were me I'd go 2nd hand. Best thing about Tikka's are that everyone seems to buy them, and sell them at a huge loss on Trademe.
Right now I count: 4 7mm08s, 2 270, 1 308 for sale in different forms.
Between Trademe and this forum, you can pick up a near new one, scoped and suppressed within your budget. Some people ask stupid money for them, but usually doesn't take long and you can score a bargain.

Scopes are another topic, probably more confusing than the rifle. I highly recommend the Burris Fullfield 2s as a good value for money scope.
After all my Tikka ranting, these Howas look pretty good.
Howa M1500 .308 Camo Hogue Stock Burris | Trade Me
http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hunt...1246931193.htm

Sort of....your Kimber Sako Forbes cough Blaser are in a different price bracket to your Tikka Howa Savage Weatherby Mossbergs for a reason.

That said there is no reason any of the last group wont serve you well and be acceptably accurate.
Package deal scopes are often not even worthy of being on a 22lr...my advice if you must buy new is get the best deal on a bare rifle and then spend at least 500 on a scope....then if you upgrade the rifle the scope can at least go on the new rifle.

As Beetroot said, Tikka is an awesome choice. Lots of people love them and some hate them. However, nobody can argue that they are not rugged, reliable and normally more accurate than the shooter. There is a good reason they are the country's most sold rifle. With the introduction of the T3x (latest model, with just some extra fruit added on) it means there are some pre face lift tikkas at a good price.
The other rifle i was really surprised with was the ruger american. Yes the stock is a bit plastic, but they shoot well and at around 900 new they leave 400 for a vx1 or similar scope. Good option.
Howas are great, bit clunky but shoot true and normally have some good deals. Dont get sucked into the combo deals tho, you are normally just adding cost to buy a crap scope. Buy the rifle by itself and do the scope separately.
savage are good, but would never buy one myself.

I like budget stuff, but not the very bottom tier, and find that they all shoot pretty well. I've had a go with Howa, Savage, Tikka, Marlin, Zastava, Browning and probably a couple of others that are within your price range. To be honest they all seem to shoot about the same with a hand load worked up. The best option is to fondle as many as you can and buy the one you don't want to hand back. For me that was Savage, but I also have a couple of Zastava's in the safe that I really love too.

I'd buy second hand for a good deal. Don't be in too much of a hurry and wait for the right one to come up.

I agree with gadgetman, look for used. So great deals out there but get someone who knows what they're looking at to help you.

For me tikkas are more hype than anything. Despite all the stories I'm yet to see one that shoots like people claim. They are a budget rifle, just like other budget rifles, nothing more nothing less. See a ton of them at the range, and they seem ho hum. Howa are worth a look, and the non-axis Savages are great bang for buck. I would back them against a t3 if you want to talk grouping. Vast majority of modern stuff is more than adequate accuracy wise for hunting anyway.

Fiend of mine recently brought a package deal in 243. Was a Remington 783. Rifle shot OK but would have been better if it had open sights as the scope was terrible. Not even a name on the side of it. I don't suspect it will / would last very long.

Nothing wrong with the Howa, a little cheaper than the Tikka. They are a good budget rifle. I don't like the hogue stocks on them but you can get them with factory wooden stocks that have been floated and bedded.
Keep on eye out for second hand if your budget is only around 1200 max. As others have said you need/should spend a bit on glass as well.

Another approach could be a trip to Gun City or your local sporting store. They have a huge selection of rifles in your price bracket and will allow you to handle them and figure out what brand you prefer.

Not skimping on good optics is always solid advice.

As much of a fan as I am of the 270, they are a step up in recoil from the 308/7-08, probably not what I'd recommend as a first centre fire rifle for a new shooter.

Howa 1500 308 | Trade Me

As Beetroot,on your budget.never need another.

Try before you buy. The fit, feel and trigger pull has a lot to do with how you shoot for best bullet placement and a caliber you can comfortably shoot without flinching as any cal will kill. Go second hand rifle and get a good optic, and don't get suckered in from the shops, get what you really you need and not what they say you need. Your the one paying and using it not them.

The T3 is a benchmark. Not the absolute best but a standard to compare other rifles to.

Likewise the Leupold VXI if the benchmark for scopes.

second hand only look at under-5 yr old, Trusty old BSA Parker Hale RugerM77 Mauser SMLE Remington often Command prices beyond their valve compared to new.

Budget for a hundred pack of ammo. Use 50 to sight in test get trajectory and youll have 50 for hunting and checking Zero. Choose one low / medium price ammo and don't experimerit. Insufficient quantity and mixed ammo often let down new shooters on a modest budget. Your benchmark aCcuracy should be 50mm at l00m Not trying for l MoA with $1300 gear (at first).

As others have said, buy the rifle then the scope afterwards....go to a couple of gun stores, feel the fit when you put it up to your shoulder, can you easily flip the safety off, what does the bolt feel like (if you decide to buy a bolt action)

i bought a 'combo' Howa 1500 deal, sold the scope straight away and put a Leupold on it, sold the rifle bag, & scope mounts it came with too, ended up getting a brand new stock rifle for $700, which was really cheap at the time!!!!!

good luck with your decision mate! :thumbsup:

@Scouser has raised a good point, bolt action, single shot, semi auto lever action.... Presuming you are right handed which makes things easier.

When starting out I would begin with a bolt action 22 and get used to it and then move up to a centrefire. Reasoning behind this is the price of ammunition. 22 is still less than 20c a round, my 308 with good quality factory is $3.50 :sick: one good scope on the 22 can move onto the centrefire in the future.

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

Budget for a hundred pack of ammo. Use 50 to sight in test get trajectory and youll have 50 for hunting and checking Zero. Choose one low / medium price ammo and don't experimerit. Insufficient quantity and mixed ammo often let down new shooters on a modest budget. Your benchmark aCcuracy should be 50mm at l00m Not trying for l MoA with $1300 gear (at first).

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This comment is actually very good advice. Most of the rifles mentioned so far, if not all are well capable of good accuracy. With a persons first centre fire the issue is usually with the accuracy of the person. If you put a 1moa gun in the hands of a 4MOA shooter, best they can hope for is 5MOA.....with most inside 4MOA. Practise with one sort of ammo until you get good consistency. 308 is good for this as the ammo choices are plenty and there are some budget brands that can make practise a lot easier.

The comment re practise with a 22 is also sound advice. Technique is important and a lot can be learnt and developed in the humble 22.

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Originally Posted by SGR

but Im lost as to what brands better .

Is it a case of the more you spend the better the rifle ?

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If you have ever been invested in another hobby you would no doubt know that there is no such thing as a blanket "better" (or "good" or "best" for that matter).

There are broadly two several desirable attributes in a rifle: accuracy and cosmetic quality.

Accuracy is a pretty simple concept. Every brand has produced accurate rifles. The trick is, which brand produce accurate rifles MORE CONSISTANTLY. This comes down to 3 things: choice of material, choice between tolerance and cost, and production method. Some brands tend to use better materials, have tighter tolerances, and/or production methods tend to produce more accurate rifles (and save money on stock or packaging, for example). Savage for example uses button rifling, this process produces more accurate rifle but at the same time causes more fouling than other methods. CZ for example tend to use very good steel and has a reputation of good craftsmanship. To get a feel of which brand is more accurate you should not ask for people's opinion in forums because everyone will tell you the gun they own is accurate. Read gun reviews with accuracy comparisons. Generally, for your price range, I would say Savage and Tikka T3 are the most accurate (on average). Trigger also plays a big part in accuracy, some brands has better designed factory trigger than others. Tikka's is quite good. Savage uses a complex dual trigger design called accu-trigger. Some other brands has followed that path in recent years.

interesting article on accuracy.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/min...ut-of-the-box/

By cosmetic quality I mean things like fit and finish, the quality and texture of wood and paint, etc. To be honest you will not find any Western European or American stars in your price range. Eastern European, South American, and Russian may have something with decent cosmetic quality, but they generally are less accurate and quality control is slightly less consistent. Most rifles with good cosmetic quality are 2000 + for bare rifle. Common people brands include Kimber, Styer, Sako, etc...

@buzzman has a suitable candidate for sale, maybe not for deer but rabbits and goats is perfect if your new to hunting

Cheers guys really appreciate all the replies , given me heaps to think about .

Sold off one of my mtb's so do have 2k to play with just set my budget around the 1300 ish mark so im still able to gear up with some more stuff.
(sleeping bag ,sleeping mat , knife, cooker and a few other things )
Dont really see the point dropping it all on a rifle if i haven't got the gear i need to get out and find them in the first place.
(Already have the basics; boots, binos ,pack and necessary clothing)

Going to try get into gun city and actually hold a few see how they feel !

cheers!

Like others have said, dont buy a package with a crap scope. Either get the bare rifle or try get a deal with a upgraded scope . No brand names, gun city scopes etc are just shit. A scope thats around 400-599 would be the min i be looking at. Vortex, Bushnell, leupold, Burris, Weaver all very good and maybe a redfield as bottom line. Certain models of some rifles are crap and should be avoided. Savage axis and Remington 770 are two that come to mind. Howa are good value, T3 very good and Remington 700 are fine as well as is a few other brands.

https://www.guncity.com/howa-m1500-s...calibre-317388

https://www.guncity.com/7mm-08-savag...nthetic-321640

https://www.guncity.com/savage-axis-...calibre-238546

paired with

https://www.guncity.com/leupold-vx-1...m-matte-108789

Or this combo
http://www.outdoorsupplies.co.nz/Centerfire.html#howa

seems to be the best value for money i can find new so far

Have a look at the Ruger American, they get very good reviews especially accuracy wise, been thinking of one in 30 06 one day ,maybe. Tikka T3's are pretty good also have two and both get the job do just fine. They may not be tack drivers but for hunting they are hard to beat unless you spend more money.

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Originally Posted by SGR

https://www.guncity.com/howa-m1500-s...calibre-317388

https://www.guncity.com/7mm-08-savag...nthetic-321640

https://www.guncity.com/savage-axis-...calibre-238546

paired with

https://www.guncity.com/leupold-vx-1...m-matte-108789

seems to be the best value for money i can find new so far

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Don't go for a Savage Axis. Honestly, keep an eye open on here and trademe for a good deal on a second hand rifle of better quality. Don't be in too much of a hurry. If you were a leftie I'd point you at a Savage with a fairly good scope on trademe. If you want to try out a couple of my rifles at the range flick me a PM.

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Originally Posted by SGR

Cheers guys really appreciate all the replies , given me heaps to think about .

Sold off one of my mtb's so do have 2k to play with just set my budget around the 1300 ish mark so im still able to gear up with some more stuff.
(sleeping bag ,sleeping mat , knife, cooker and a few other things )
Dont really see the point dropping it all on a rifle if i haven't got the gear i need to get out and find them in the first place.
(Already have the basics; boots, binos ,pack and necessary clothing)

Going to try get into gun city and actually hold a few see how they feel !

cheers!

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I'm not trying to start a shit fight here but GC is a great place to have a look at different rifles as they have such a huge range, but.. I wouldn't listen for a second to the absolute dribble that comes out of the mouths of any of the staff in there.... they use pushy tactics and will sing the praises of anything if they think they can get a sale out of it, I have heard some really shocking and bullshit advice handed out in there to new shooters.

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Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

I'm not trying to start a shit fight here but GC is a great place to have a look at different rifles as they have such a huge range, but.. I wouldn't listen for a second to the absolute dribble that comes out of the mouths of any of the staff in there.... they use pushy tactics and will sing the praises of anything if they think they can get a sale out of it, I have heard some really shocking and bullshit advice handed out in there to new shooters.

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Yea im definitely on the same page cheers for the heads up

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Originally Posted by SGR

https://www.guncity.com/howa-m1500-s...calibre-317388

https://www.guncity.com/7mm-08-savag...nthetic-321640

https://www.guncity.com/savage-axis-...calibre-238546

paired with

https://www.guncity.com/leupold-vx-1...m-matte-108789

Or this combo
Centerfire Rifles - Hunting and Outdoor Supplies

seems to be the best value for money i can find new so far

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Can you still get the Savage trophy hunter + weaver scope packages for $950? That deal is the best value around IMO.

Some good advice posted on this thread already so nothing to add really!

In defence for the axis. I got one in 223 as I was after something cheaper to run than 270 on wallabys. It does the job well and is accurate. But....the stock is flimsy, and I can see it will break through the pistol grip if given a decent hit. You could upgrade the stock, but you may as well've spent that extra on the next level up and had something good in the first place.
Reason I got it was I was going out for a weekend shoot and there was nothing else around on the day and it was ready to shoot. I view it as a disposable rifle. I wouldn't get another for the above reasons.
If Buzzman had advertised his one in a couple of months time, I would've bought it straight away

You are in CHCH so try Shooters supplies in Hornby (near the BK on waterloo road) and Gunworks in Yaldhurst. Both are very good to deal with. Honest and reliable.

Ultimutsus analysis into accuracy and cosmetics is good.

Many people have recommended "feel" which is very important. Specially does your finger reach the trigger and does the palmswell fit your hand ? No swell can be better than bad swell. Good fit and feel costs the manufacturer nothing.

The other is "features" which increase useability but are often expensive and you can do wihout on a budget . Examples are the three lug 60 deg bolt throw, box mag, 5 shots,metal bolt shroud etc that make the sako twice the price of the tikka. On scopes these include dial turrets, ballistic reticles, >9x, >40mm obj and rainguard all offering real but diminishing returns for a lot more cost. Sort of supersizing your spend.

You have generated a fair amount of interest / advice.
Mine is this, there are two basic trains of thought. Learn from a cheapy or cry once buy once.
I advocate learn from a cheapie and know when to fold 'em and know when to hold 'em.
Your first rifle is always going to be something to remember, for all sorts of reasons. What a lot of the guys are talking about has only come with THEIR experience, some things you need to experience yourself and thats part of the learning curve.
Unless you intend going Wapiti hunting alot, then a milder caliber is going to teach you a fair bit.
As a first rifle I would suggest something like a 7 mm 08

Throw up a wanted add on the buy and sell, see what pops up, theres a couple lads on here change rifles more than undies, so there is always something in the works. I picked up a practically brand new tikka with a serviceable nikon scope for $900.

I have owned a tikka, howa, savage, and a biakal. The tikka and savage shot best, but the tikka has a way better stock and was a step up in finish. That said the savage was still a laser. The howa still shot under 1 moa and was well finished also, but in a laminate stock was a heavy ol girl. The Biakal was poked and couldn't hit a barn door, but still accounted for a few hares and goats.

Of the cheap - middle range rifles I have used the tikka is the best balance of weight finish and accuracy, but you can still kill shit with a very basic rifle.
If I was doing it again, id just buy the tikka and skip the others

Just wanted to say thanks for all the advice managed to come across this 308 steyr pro hunter and Zeiss scope 2nd hand
Was only 1400 $ :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by SGR

Just wanted to say thanks for all the advice managed to come across this 308 steyr pro hunter and Zeiss scope 2nd hand
Was only 1400 $ :thumbsup:

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wow wow that is a good buy,the zeiss is almost $1000 well done mate:thumbsup:

Yes! Well done!
That was worth the wait.
It looks likeyou've met someone who wants their good rifle to go to a good home.
Thanks for posting the outcome with the pic .

Very nice and a bloody good deal especially if that suppressor came with, if so it was almost a free rifle

Yeap came as it is in the picture I'm over the moon, just came across it on trade me . Scopes brand new too ! Heading to the range tonight :thumbsup:

damn!! that was deal of the century

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Originally Posted by SGR

Yeap came as it is in the picture I'm over the moon, just came across it on trade me . Scopes brand new too ! Heading to the range tonight :thumbsup:

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Now that is a damn good piece of 'beginners luck'. :cool:

great buy, bought my steyr 45 yrs ago still shoots better than me.

Pretty happy for my first time shooting the rifle and first time shooting targets was after an inch high at 100yrd pulled it Down slightly resulting in the bullseye but overall I'm stoked :thumbsup:

Photo should rotate to the right if I knew how Attachment 69805