Heads-up on Volquartsen THM 10/22 barrels

A few here will have seen the issues I had with a Grey Birch 10/22 barrel - detailed here: https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....-barrel-66079/ Well, in a roundabout way I decided to replace it with one of the Volquartsen 16.5" carbon-fibre sleeved THM barrels that Gun City has in stock. A fair bit more expensive, but hopefully that extra money buys extra quality? Not necessarily.

The first barrel:

Chamber:
https://i.imgur.com/BAxobuVh.jpg

Chamber:
https://i.imgur.com/XxLTp0Bh.jpg

Crown (mainly cosmetic):
https://i.imgur.com/KbC37E2h.jpg

Breech (cosmetic):
https://i.imgur.com/Bmquafuh.jpg

Scratches in the carbon fibre (cosmetic):
https://i.imgur.com/S5KXwqjh.jpg https://i.imgur.com/AWKIgbGh.jpg

Took it back, swapped it for a second barrel.

Chamber offset:
https://i.imgur.com/fO7ZkZth.jpg

Chamber offset:
https://i.imgur.com/fO7ZkZth.jpg

The second barrel had the same scratches as the first, though I wouldn't have sent it back for that.

Both barrels had chambers long enough that a loaded round wouldn't touch the rifling. I didn't measure the first, but on the second barrel a SK standard+ bullet would have to jump a full 1.6mm before touching.

The shanks of both barrels were oversize at ~0.927" vs. spec. of 0.920". Enough of a difference that the barrel wouldn't properly seat in the receiver. I know the tenon is oversize by design, but the shank shouldn't be.

I returned the second barrel as well. Gun City gave me a full refund without any drama, so no complaints there. I emailed VQ a couple of times just to let them know but haven't had a response.

I suggested to Gun City that they have someone go through their stock of these barrels with a borescope and cull any bad ones. Hopefully they took my suggestion, but if any more like my 2 are out there then at least you guys know what to look for before committing the cash. Happy to give more details as required.

Thanks so much for the heads up, real world informed experience is what the forum is about. Caveat emptor.

GC probably got them as grey imports and they were mean't to be chopped up at factory for not meeting QC.... has happened there before.

Post your shooting results.

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Originally Posted by 55six

Post your shooting results.

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Which results are you referring to? Both VQ barrels were returned unfired - I'm not wasting my time to machine, fit and test them when they have obvious defects. I've been caught that way before.

In due course I'll post the shooting results from the Beyer barrel I'm working with now, but probably not on this particular thread.

Your borescope has earned it's keep.

I would have been asking whether or not those barrels were truly Volquartsen.

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Originally Posted by Rushy

I would have been asking whether or not those barrels were truly Volquartsen.

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Yeah it surprises me as well. I would have doubted Volquartsen would have produced barrels of this quality let alone let them leave the factory.
I wonder if they would be interested to know that there are some below par barrels on the market with their name stamped on them ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by viper

Yeah it surprises me as well. I would have doubted Volquartsen would have produced barrels of this quality let alone let them leave the factory.
I wonder if they would be interested to know that there are some below par barrels on the market with their name stamped on them ?

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Yes, those thoughts have occurred to me also. But I sent them emails on the 23rd and 31st Oct with all the details and never received a reply.

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Originally Posted by PaulNZ

Yes, those thoughts have occurred to me also. But I sent them emails on the 23rd and 31st Oct with all the details and never received a reply.

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When I last emailed them it took them a little while to get back to me, I was actually emailed back by Scott Volquartsen himself, he was very helpful.

I think the company is actually quite small (13 people from what I've been able to research), this is perhaps why technical questions take a bit of time to hear back from them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 308mate

When I last emailed them it took them a little while to get back to me, I was actually emailed back by Scott Volquartsen himself, he was very helpful.

I think the company is actually quite small (13 people from what I've been able to research), this is perhaps why technical questions take a bit of time to hear back from them.

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Could be. If I get a response I'll add it to the thread for sure. I certainly have no vendetta against Volquartsen - I genuinely thought they'd want to know and act on this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaulNZ

Could be. If I get a response I'll add it to the thread for sure. I certainly have no vendetta against Volquartsen - I genuinely thought they'd want to know and act on this.

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100% agreed.

GC are doing some weird things with the Volquartsen rifles. Noticed they sell same named "22LR Volquartsen with Tan FAB Stock & Threaded Carbon Barrel", in which they've removed the VQ barrel and put on there own ranger carbon barrels. Not sure how happy VQ would be about that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rushy

I would have been asking whether or not those barrels were truly Volquartsen.

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yeah what he said..
Considering comment below about VQ's with GC barrels, maybe they are doing even more of a switcheroo.
Copy a VQ, put their own brand barrel on it and then flog the VQ barrel as ridgy didge.
All theoretical of course.
They wouldnt do that would they?
Rhetorical

I don't have a real opinion on this, but I do know that bore scopes can be the devil and create problems where there arnt any.
@55six has it right imo - but how does it shoot / function?

Have dealt with people in the past who have bought a brand new rifle, then returned it saying they put a bore scope down it and found tooling marks, scratches or whatever in the barrel...
OK...so how does it shoot? Does it meet its accuracy and function requirements to be fit for purpose? You mention the projectile does not contact the lands...if it did you'd run the risk of yanking projectiles out of their case every time you unload.

Im not saying these are fit for purpose. Could not comment on what if any effect the detected imperfections would have on real functioning and accuracy of a given barrel and firearm. Impossible to really say without testing.

If you own a bore scope your chances of ever being happy with a barrel goes down drastically regardless of how well it shoots. Sometimes its better not to know that that 1/4" barrel has a big pit in it, because afterall its accuracy and function that matters, and a bore scope cannot tell you that.

@PaulNZ PS just read your other thread, now I understand why you cant just "test it out" .
cheers

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Originally Posted by ChrisW

I don't have a real opinion on this, but I do know that bore scopes can be the devil and create problems where there arnt any.
@55six has it right imo - but how does it shoot / function?

Have dealt with people in the past who have bought a brand new rifle, then returned it saying they put a bore scope down it and found tooling marks, scratches or whatever in the barrel...
OK...so how does it shoot? Does it meet its accuracy and function requirements to be fit for purpose? You mention the projectile does not contact the lands...if it did you'd run the risk of yanking projectiles out of their case every time you unload.

Im not saying these are fit for purpose. Could not comment on what if any effect the detected imperfections would have on real functioning and accuracy of a given barrel and firearm. Impossible to really say without testing.

If you own a bore scope your chances of ever being happy with a barrel goes down drastically regardless of how well it shoots. Sometimes its better not to know that that 1/4" barrel has a big pit in it, because afterall its accuracy and function that matters, and a bore scope cannot tell you that.

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@ChrisW
Good points, and well put. As you note on your follow up post, unfortunately testing these barrels is a little more involved when you don't even have a 10/22 to put them on. I'm happy to admit I'm not working with all the information here, and I couldn't guarantee that these barrels won't shoot well. But it's an educated guess on my part. I do think I'm on pretty safe ground saying that this is not how these barrels are supposed to be.

I'm sure not all VQ barrels are like this. If anyone else here gets one with the same defects it'll be their call whether they're willing to roll the dice. In this instance, I wasn't.

Regarding the projectile contacting (or at least being near) the lands, I understand that would be normal for a 'Bentz' spec chamber which is what I understood VQ to use. Happy to be corrected on that point. A degree of rifling engraving on the bullet is common for match-spec .22 chambers and I haven't heard of even deep engraving causing bullets to be pulled from cases - we are talking soft, lubricated lead after all rather than jacketed bullets. It's the amount of projectile jump that took me by surprise: 1.6mm seems a lot. I measured the chamber length as best I could to be 0.760" from rim seating face to leade. If you look at .22 reamer specs that doesn't look like a chamber I would expect.

The reasons I sent the barrels back though were the terrible finish at the front end of the chamber for the first barrel, and the chamber being eccentric to the bore on the second barrel. Everything else is just observations on my part.

Snug receiver fit, loose fit, angled fit, barrel droop. All inherent problems of the 10/22 receiver to barrel fit platform. There is no consistency in receiver design or barrel design. This is why Grey Birch no longer makes barrels or receivers. They only make a fusion system. Their barrel threaded into their receiver.
In regards to borescoping. Read ChrisW post again. It reflects our experience 100%.

Ken. When do we get to see a fusion barrel and receiver in NZ?

To be honest we have devoted a good chunk of our energy into https://nightvision.co.nz/ which is where most of our income is coming from. 2022 will see some interesting developments on the 10/22 front that we are currently working on including GB

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Originally Posted by quentin

Ken. When do we get to see a fusion barrel and receiver in NZ?

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The Bergara BXR ‘10/22 clone’ has the barrel threaded into the receiver, but interestingly it can be retrofitted with a press fit barrel. Machining and finish an improvement over the Ruger but correspondingly more $..but certainly more features including an integral rail and cleaning hole in receiver..

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Originally Posted by PaulNZ

In due course I'll post the shooting results from the Beyer barrel I'm working with now.

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As promised, some preliminary results from the Beyer barrel. For those who haven't heard of these before, it's a 4140 steel rifled liner fitted inside a 7075 aluminium blank - similar construction to Whistlepig/Acculite barrels. I ordered a 10/22 drop-in version from Brownells back in May - .22lr chamber, 16.5" length and 0.920" diameter. After being declared lost by USPS, it arrived on my doorstep early November.

It slugged, borescoped and measured up well - a nice change from my experience with the barrels from the previous 2 manufacturers, despite it being the cheapest of the lot! Here it is fitted up to my rifle after the necessary machining, with DPT suppressor and Leupold 2-7x33 on board:

https://i.imgur.com/B4BvuNvh.jpg

It doesn't have the bling factor of the carbon fibre, but I like the no-nonsense black cerakote.

I put the first shots through it on Saturday. I haven't done any kind of extensive testing - it's barely had a 50rd box put through it yet. It already shows a definite liking for RWS Target Rifle - I fired 3 5-shot groups at 50m straight after getting it on the paper and got 12.0mm, 12.0mm and 7.0mm. I'm happy with that, especially considering I reckoned I could have maybe shaved a few mm off if I'd had a better aiming point. I was using orange adhesive dots on white paper, but forgot to bring sunglasses or a black marker to outline the dot. In the full sun the orange tended to blur against the white paper and it was tough to pick the dot centre on 7x.

I'll hollow-point a 50rd box of the RWS and check that on the target in a few weeks time. So far, a big thumbs-up from me for the Beyer barrel. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by 55six

Snug receiver fit, loose fit, angled fit, barrel droop. All inherent problems of the 10/22 receiver to barrel fit platform. There is no consistency in receiver design or barrel design...

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I think lose fit and droop are both the product of Ruger's loose tolerance as a result of mass production. when the whole gun is sold for 199 USD and action is cast, precision takes a back seat. The V-lock screw design will induce barrel droop if there is any looseness in the barrel fit. But the design itself is otherwise solid.

KIDD has been making precision 10/22 barrel and action for over 12 years. I own a full KIDD with Ruger standard design receive and barrel and this gun shoots very well. Both receiver and barrel are compatible with Ruger factory barrel/action.

I also own a Whistlepig barrel that is married to a factory Ruger 10/22 receiver. The barrel was made slightly oversized to ensure a tight fit. They send a piece of sandpaper with the barrel for the user to sand down the barrel breach end to fit the receiver. Whistlepig barrels generally enjoy good reputation for accuracy. Mine was very accurate for a lightweight gun.

Lilja and Truflight both make drop-in 10/22 barrels. I have never seen anyone complaining about them not being accurate.

My point is that precision 10/22 barrels can be done and other have been doing it for a long time. Grey Birch is new to the game, so it is not clear why they cannot overcome the variance problem that others seem to have been able to beat.

I agree that making fixed barrel action is better and avoids these compatibility issues. But up front costs is a lot higher and it no compatibility with other barrels. For example, what if a few years down the line you want to swap to a Lilja heavy bull barrel? The whole interchangeability is the 10/22's appeal in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

I think lose fit and droop are both the product of Ruger's loose tolerance as a result of mass production. when the whole gun is sold for 199 USD and action is cast, precision takes a back seat. The V-lock screw design will induce barrel droop if there is any looseness in the barrel fit. But the design itself is otherwise solid.

KIDD has been making precision 10/22 barrel and action for over 12 years. I own a full KIDD with Ruger standard design receive and barrel and this gun shoots very well. Both receiver and barrel are compatible with Ruger factory barrel/action.

I also own a Whistlepig barrel that is married to a factory Ruger 10/22 receiver. The barrel was made slightly oversized to ensure a tight fit. They send a piece of sandpaper with the barrel for the user to sand down the barrel breach end to fit the receiver. Whistlepig barrels generally enjoy good reputation for accuracy. Mine was very accurate for a lightweight gun.

Lilja and Truflight both make drop-in 10/22 barrels. I have never seen anyone complaining about them not being accurate.

My point is that precision 10/22 barrels can be done and other have been doing it for a long time. Grey Birch is new to the game, so it is not clear why they cannot overcome the variance problem that others seem to have been able to beat.

I agree that making fixed barrel action is better and avoids these compatibility issues. But up front costs is a lot higher and it no compatibility with other barrels. For example, what if a few years down the line you want to swap to a Lilja heavy bull barrel? The whole interchangeability is the 10/22's appeal in the first place.

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Agree with everything you say. I also have full Kidd and other hybrids. The Bergara BXR intrigues me though, I have yet to test mine, the threaded into receiver barrel with the option of retrofitting a standard barrel to the receiver is innovative. I’m not aware of anyone having taken off the threaded barrel and checked how a standard barrel fits? The receiver fit to barrel is certainly square on mine. One of the biggest problems with all my Ruger receivers is being out of alignment laterally. Hardly noticeable in a wide inlet stock but must affect function in a narrower inlet or non free floated setup. Certainly diminishing returns going too far down the 10/22 rabbit hole however!

I am both a Kidd and Volquartsen dealer. I will not stock the Volquartsen products any more due to multiple warranty issues, among them, the THM barrels. We are at the far end of the earth and it is too much trouble when something isn't right. Volquartsen does sell some unique gear and their pistol products are top notch, so will continue to custom order from them if a customer needs something specific, but otherwise, Kidd is my go to for 10/22 products.
As to the chamber length, I know from experience that both Kidd and Anschutz chambers are cut to engage the bullet into the rifling. Not much, but enough to leave marks on extracted rounds.

@PaulNZ out of interest sake you mention it is cheaper than the other 2. What sort of coin are you talking about to get in your hot little hands?

@csmiffy here you go: https://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...prod31761.aspx

Back when USPS were actually delivering to NZ, I paid USD$187.99 + USD$26.40 shipping - USD$15.00 promotional discount. Nowadays (unless it's changed again recently) I think the only Brownells shipping options are prohibitively expensive. Maybe one of our NZ-based importers would be interested in bringing some in? @USAGuns ?

Actually the above is not the full story. That is what I paid, but after USPS lost the delivery Brownells gave me a full refund. When the ripped and squashed box actually showed up on my doorstep 6 months later - containing the barrel but missing the rest of my order - I offered to pay again and Brownells told me not to bother :thumbsup:

@PaulNZ how much is prohibitively expensive? I was looking at getting some stuff from Brownells soon.

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Originally Posted by 308mate

@PaulNZ how much is prohibitively expensive? I was looking at getting some stuff from Brownells soon.

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I don't have up to date info, so the best thing would be to email the Brownells international department. After USPS suspended delivery I checked out the other shipping options listed at Brownells checkout. Here's what I wrote into this thread: https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....sps-usa-76334/

...there's 'Parcel Post Priority Mail International' and 'Parcel Post Express' which are both USPS, but also 'UPS Int'l Expedite', 'Bax Global' and 'Truck/Ocean' which may not be affected by the USPS suspension.

Truck/Ocean doesn't sound promising. A quick google search doesn't look great for Bax Global - not sure if it's even a current option? UPS Int'l Expedite is probably still available, but the online UPS calculator shows it costing NZ$350 to ship a package 50x10x10cm of 1kg. 30x5x5cm is 'only' NZ$250. Probably Brownells UPS rates are different to those on the UPS website, but everything looks pretty damn expensive. Back to the drawing board...

I subsequently heard that UPS weren't delivering either. Brownells USA said they won't use FedEx. Perhaps they've sorted something out by now, but otherwise it's pretty tough. Maybe ordering from Brownells Australia if they happen to have stock of what you want?

Good luck!