HELP - scope click values on S&B scope

Hi guys, I need help here. I want a FFP scope with mil-dot reticle & is like a simple elevation turret to quickly dial up elevation up to a min of 1 mill so I can for example (if I need to take a shot that requires 1.7mil I can hold over 1 mil-dit on The reticule & dial 7clicks on the elevation turret to give 1.7mils).
I found a Schmidt & bender 3-12x50 klassic LM P3L ASV H scope that I thought perfect BUT the numbers on the turret don’t make sense to me because I would have thought if each click was 0.1cm then each 5th click would have a line and at 10 clicks that would be 1mil. I’ve attached pic.
My question is “is this Scope in 0.1cm clicks and can I disregard the numbers and use as a mil dial scope”?
Can’t get a straight answer from agents in nz

Greetings,
The manufacturers data says it is 1 cm at 100 metres or 0.1 milliradians (0.1 mrad). This is slightly more than 0.1 mils. I think that the hash marks are .05 mrad which adds up to .2 mrad for the first number. That would make sense. You might want to test it once it is on the rifle.
Regards Grandpamac.

Thanks @grandpamac but if each has mark was 0.2 Mrad then I’d expect the first number to be on the 5th click (not the 4th) as the turret numbers are placed. I’m really confused. The instruction book says each click 0.1 cm @ 100m but the numbers on the turret for the click increments are every 4th click!

May have been converted to 1/4 moa clicks ? One moa = 1.142" @ 100m= approx 0.7cm
In mills this would equate to 0.7cm per click @ 100m or 0.61cm @ 100yards)

the numbers/graduations on the turret seem to indicate its moa not mils

you can easily check by setting up a marked (graduated) piece of paper (exactly) 100 yards. Do markings in both inches and cm's on the paper. Dial the scope to "5" or "10" on your dial and measure how far it moves.

@chainsaw, so will the clicks still be 0.1mil Each click (I.e if I ignored the numbers and just went on clicks As 10 clicks = 1 mil @ 100m would this work). Thus, if I got a new turret numbering it would be all good?). Cheers

I suspect the clicks are 0.1 mrad but there are 5 clicks between each hash mark so the 2 stands for 2 mrad. You can check this without the scope on the rifle. The hash marks are well spaced so you can judge to the nearest 0.1 mrad. Finally please do not confuse milliradians and Mils. 1 mil is equal to 0.98 mrad. Not a big difference and can be ignored at closer range but will need to be considered at long range. The confusion between the units is due to our american cousins being pretty careless with terminology.
Regards Grandpamac.

Thanks for your reply @grandpamac but the numbers correspond to every 4th click. For example, there are 3 small hash marks between 1&2 and Then another 3 small hash marks between 2&3 etc. Each click corresponds to A hash mark. I’ve confirmed that From 1 it's 8 clicks to 3. Going further, it’s 20 clicks to the number 7...
I’m beginning to think that the clicks are in fact 0.1mrad and the turret numbering corresponds to Inches @ 100m (I.e 1 inch, 2inch, 3inch etc..). Would this make sense if each click is 10mm @ 100m (same as 0.360 inch at 100m).
If this is correct, can I disregard the numbers and just count on the clicks being 0.1cm @ 100m (which is 1mrad??)

See if you can set up some kind of target at a measured 25 meters. You can do it at home. Draw some lines of it..maybe a 10cm long line and mark each centimetre...
Point your scope at it, so its resting by itself, and spin the knob...see if it moves 1cm per 4 clicks at that distance..if it does then you know each click is .1mils.

Of course you can use whatever distance you want, but 25m, 50m and 100m will be nice and round and easy..
if its .1 mil clicks then

at 25m 4 clicks will be 1 cm
50m 2 clicks will be 1 cm
100m 1 clicks will be 1 cm.

or just go to 100m range. Shoot a hole into target, crank elevation up a bunch of clicks then see how much POI has gone up..would be very obvious with like 16 clicks. If it’s .1mil impact should go up 16cm, if moa it’ll go up about 10cm. Should be enough difference between adjustments with that many clicks to easily tell even accounting for shooter / rifle consistency problems. No more guessing

looking at the owners manual online the "H" means its got BDC turrets fitted that are marked specifically for a caliber. The P3L is the reticle and is a Mil dot reticle. With a Mil reticle it should have MRAD turrets - if you undo the coin slot on the top i think you can expose the turrets below that should indicate click value

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Originally Posted by B.pope

Thanks for your reply @grandpamac but the numbers correspond to every 4th click. For example, there are 3 small hash marks between 1&2 and Then another 3 small hash marks between 2&3 etc. Each click corresponds to A hash mark. I’ve confirmed that From 1 it's 8 clicks to 3. Going further, it’s 20 clicks to the number 7...
I’m beginning to think that the clicks are in fact 0.1mrad and the turret numbering corresponds to Inches @ 100m (I.e 1 inch, 2inch, 3inch etc..). Would this make sense if each click is 10mm @ 100m (same as 0.360 inch at 100m).
If this is correct, can I disregard the numbers and just count on the clicks being 0.1cm @ 100m (which is 1mrad??)

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Curious and Curiouser,
Assuming that the 1 cm at 100 metres is correct then the number 1 corresponds to 40 mm or a little over 1.5 inches at 100 metres. I think that the only way to be sure is to do a box test by mounting the scope on a rifle and seeing how far 10 or 20 clicks takes you at 100 metres. You could also dial on 2 whatever they ares to see what that comes too as well. All else should become clear at this point. 1 mrad (10 clicks?) is exactly 100 mm at 100 metres. The Military needed a round number for their artillery and adopted 6,400 mils to a full circle versus 6,283 mrad to a full circle. 0.1 mrad (or 1 cm at 100 metres) equals 0.36 inches at 100 yards and 0.394 inches at 100 metres. Leupold scopes are calibrated in mrad and so marked. I am sure the manufacturers had a clear plan of what they were trying to achieve when the scope was made, you just need to nut out what is was.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Originally Posted by B.pope

@chainsaw, so will the clicks still be 0.1mil Each click (I.e if I ignored the numbers and just went on clicks As 10 clicks = 1 mil @ 100m would this work). Thus, if I got a new turret numbering it would be all good?). Cheers

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Pretty much what @ChrisW has also stated.
Pick a distance, and wind up or down a decent number of clx 10 or 20 or so, but make it an easy number and multiple of 10. Then measure how much your POA moves.
if its dialing moa, then 10clx at 100 yards = 2.5 inches. If its mils then its going to be around 3.3 inches. Dialing a larger number of clx will exaggerate the difference. You need to have the scope "locked down" into firm position so it doesn't move (at all) when you dial and best lined up with poa near top of your graduated marks. When you dial up the poa will move down.

After reading Shadowsol's post perhaps the numbers relate to 100 metres of range. Something more to check. Well B.pope, I'm having fun, hope you are too. At the end of all this you will still have a neat S&B scope and a tale to tell as well.
Grandpamac.

Just had another look at the turrets. The first hash mark is 1. I think Shadowsol has cracked it.

Added sum more pics

@Shadowsol, any chance sending me the link where you found the info re “H”. Thanks heaps

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Originally Posted by B.pope

@Shadowsol, any chance sending me the link where you found the info re “H”. Thanks heaps

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Page 16
http://www.schmidtundbender.de/phoca...log2014_en.pdf

Owners manual - english is the second version so scroll through
https://www.schmidtundbender.de/phoc...-1-Klassik.pdf

Looks MOA, 4 clicks x 0.25 =1 MOA 8 clicks k 0.25 =2 MOA?

@Shadowsol, thanks for the help. Does appear this model is the illuminated reticule mildot model of the 3-12x50 klassic. As per the manual ALL Klassik s are mil click adjustments so appears this may be a ballistic turret for a specific caliber.
With this being the case, if I erased the numbers & put my own in every 10 clicks as 1.0 mil (given each click hash mark is 0.1 mil). Will this work?
I’m guessing S&B will supply a standard dial replacement if ordered.
Much appreciate all your help

@chainsaw. Thanks for your input. You guys are a real wealth of knowledge. Cheers

@grandpamac. Soo grateful for spending your time helping 👍🏼. Cheers mate

@ChrisW, thanks so much. Dam helpful and in agreement from other of team. Really appreciate you taking the time to assist me

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Originally Posted by B.pope

@Shadowsol, thanks for the help. Does appear this model is the illuminated reticule mildot model of the 3-12x50 klassic. As per the manual ALL Klassik s are mil click adjustments so appears this may be a ballistic turret for a specific caliber.
With this being the case, if I erased the numbers & put my own in every 10 clicks as 1.0 mil (given each click hash mark is 0.1 mil). Will this work?
I’m guessing S&B will supply a standard dial replacement if ordered.
Much appreciate all your help

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I don’t think that’s the answer - the spacing between each value looks to be the same, so unless you have a magic cartridge with linear drop it isn’t a turret calibrated to a particular round. Moa seems to be the most logical answer despite what the manual says. Dial it as ChrisW suggested.

This appears to be a "Precision Hunter" model, which are the Klassik line with exposed turrets.
This is an unusual one for a 3-12 in that it has parallax adjustment. I see the dial goes up to 11 so that's Goood. Very loud.

S&B do make a few scopes with 1/4 MOA adjustments. I would suspect this might be one of them, a special for the American market. They generally build each scope to the purchaser's specifications except that some retailers like Eurooptic seem to order in configurations they think will sell off the shelf.

I'll bet 100 bucks its MOA, theres 4 spacings between each number, how many mil scopes have that?
Or ask another question, how many MOA scopes have that?

Hi everyone. I emailed S&B Germany with serial number & they have confirmed it has a MOA dial! Bitvdissapointed in the NZ supplier as they advertised this as 0.1cm clicks and even states in manual. I’m sending it back to Germany for turret replacements are my expense incl post. I must say that S&B have excellent service. Just a bit dissapointed at The lack of backup knowledge from NZ sales agent but maybe they didn’t know what they were buying?
Cheers for all your input guys 👍🏼

Am now in an interesting drama between the manufacturer (Schmidt & bender) which have been AWESOME.. and one of the NZ agents (who I think are crooks). I’ll see how these NZ agents support my request to have this scope altered to what was advertised (which has already been agreed by S&B Germany) and I’ve already been given price by S&B so let’s see how this supposed NZ agent does to support us. To be honest I don’t hold much hope of support but will let you know...

Did you purchase this scope new?

Oh, I see the left hand knob is illumination, not parallax.

Once you've got it into cm clicks it will be a dream to use and you'll never look back.

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Originally Posted by Remmodel7

Did you purchase this scope new?

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My mate did & still has it at mo but I’m buying off him as he does not use it

Hi @B.pope, hopefully you see this as I know I'm late to the thread but I've just purchased the exact same scope (only a few serial numbers different from yours actually). It's secondhand but unused/brand new condition and I purchased it as it was advertised as Mils/MRAD (bit disappointed to hear its MOA). I found your post today and was hoping I could get some updated information. Did you end up sending your scope to S&B in the end to have it converted? How much did it cost etc? Cheers

Hi mate, yes I had it sent back to S&B through gin city as they were the agents and I still had the purchase receipt. I had to pay the freight (approx $200) & it took 6 months but that was gun city fault. There was another option they gave which was to to refit a recalibrated turret adjuster to substitute Moa clicks to Mil but I wouldn’t have a bar of it as it’s just not right so had the complete turrets replaced with mrad.
Great scope now but a real much around

Pm me if I can help

Does the serial of the scope match the box? Had a case a while back where the wrong box was given with the scope, not that helpful considering the mix up between moa and mil...

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Originally Posted by No.3

Does the serial of the scope match the box? Had a case a while back where the wrong box was given with the scope, not that helpful considering the mix up between moa and mil...

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I think by the person I communicated with in S&B Germany (Klaus was his name), there were a number of these scopes imported to Nz by I’d say GC and there were built intended for USA market (where they seem to have a culture history of not minding to mix up mil reticule with MOA adjustment) but few ended up here. place like GC may likely cut the teather once sale done but it did find S&B to uphold super service & rate them highly if you deal with them direct!

@B.pope I'll check to see if the serial numbers match. My dial is identical to yours so I'd say I've got one that's MOA which is unfortunate. I'll probably get in touch with S&B and see if they'll do the same to mine, turn it into an mrad scope etc. I'm unfortunately not the original owner and I don't have the original receipt so that might be an issue. Surely it would just take a new turret dial with finer steps in it? Could you take a photo of the inside of the top turret if at all possible?

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Originally Posted by JockyJ

@B.pope I'll check to see if the serial numbers match. My dial is identical to yours so I'd say I've got one that's MOA which is unfortunate. I'll probably get in touch with S&B and see if they'll do the same to mine, turn it into an mrad scope etc. I'm unfortunately not the original owner and I don't have the original receipt so that might be an issue. Surely it would just take a new turret dial with finer steps in it? Could you take a photo of the inside of the top turret if at all possible?

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It may be a new dial and graduation on the click ratchet inside the dial, or it may require a whole new erector and windage assembly with the different internal thread pitch... Either way the factory will probably want to regas and reseal it for their reputation, so it is what it is. Might be easier in the term of timeframe etc etc to find a replacement and resell that one off to some old bugger with a non-metric brain?