Thread: History of the .300 Whisper now known as the .300BLK.

An interesting "flashback" of an article abut the .300 whisper which has now been SAAMI speced and renamed .300 Black Out

Article sourced from New Zealand Guns & Hunting. Sept/Oct 2003.
Let's go out & "WHISPER" at something.



Lukas Kruesi outlines a new (for New Zealand) concept in Hunting Cartridges.

A small but increasing number of hunters are leaving their "big banger" at home & learning to enjoy the benefits of almost silent shooting. In contrast to the current furore around the new magnum calibres; the super-mags short-mags & ultra-mags. The quiet JDJ Whisper calibers from SSK Industries Ltd (USA) have silently spread around the world during the past decade. Now they've arrived in New Zealand.

Suppressed centerfire rifle are nothing new to this country NZG&H featured earlier articles (issue # 57 March/April 2000 & the recent issue # 77) about suppressed rifles experiments, however the Whisper calibers, ranging from 6mm up to the the whopping 50 cal, are not only the state of the art but have grown way beyond the experiment or "wildcat" stage.
One can download a .308, use small rifle cases (like the 32-20 WCF) or pistol cartridges that hover around sub-sonic speed, & fit the rifle with a suppressor, but most of these experiments result in either not having enough downrange energy, or insufficient accuracy - both often. You need both to deal with deer sized animals once you're outside "spitting range" of the close bush encounters.
The Whisper are a whole new concept, utilizing highly efficient small capacity cases with (for the caliber) extremely heavy, ballistically efficient projectiles. This in super accurate performance that delivers more energy than any other subsonic round. There are now off-the-shelf Whisper rifles & factory ammo available in New Zealand. Numerous government agencies, military units & special forces around the world have adopted the Whisper for their unsurpassed qualities in suppressed weapons, from single shot counter-sniper rifles to full auto machine guns. It's not surprising that most articles about the Whisper are found in "Combat Arms" magazine & similar military publications. The weapons & data discussed are mostly sub-machine guns, pistols or short barreled MSSAs (the AR10/15 & M16 family) - Hardly firearms the average Kiwi hunter relates to. But how do the Whisper stack up for hunting, & how do they perform in bolt action rifles with full length barrels?

The 300 Whisper
The 300,.338 & .510 are the most common JDJ Whisper calibers, but in particular the 300 Whisper deserves attention because of its dual role as a subsonic & supersonic round. Either load can be used out of the same rifle without compromising the other. "The 300 Whisper was the first of the series & contrary to what you may & contrary to what you may have read, the cartridge was designed as a multi-purpose cartridge from the beginning", - says JD Jones, the inventor of the Whisper series. While JD Jones' company is a Class 2 or military manufacturer, its proprietor is also an avid hunter who has travelled widely, taking a variety of game with the 300 Whisper- & this with handguns! His preferences are T/C Contender or Encore based single shot pistols. However, due to their short barrel, JD's 12 or 14 inch "hand cannons" may not reveal the full potential of the .300 Whisper. To compare its sonic performance with the 7.62 x 39 Russian (as described in books & on internet sites) is a gross understatement, if not simply wrong. Even if not loaded to max, it is better to compare the 300 Whisper supersonic with the .300 Savage or 30/30 Win. The maximum velocities with 125 grain projectiles reaches 2870 fps, 2600 fps with the heavier 150 grain projectiles. More moderate loads in the 2400-2600 fps area & the corresponding energy still make this an excellent deer cartridge out to 250 yards. All this with a very mild (.223 like) recoil. low noise & excellent accuracy - Typically around 1/2 MOA or 0.5 at 100 yards. Even without looking at the subsonic suppressed loads, this combination & performance makes the .300 Whisper an ideal lady-hunter or youngster's deer rifle - or anybody put off by heavy recoil & the noise level for that matter. By all means it is a better choice than the marginal .223 many of us shot our first deer with!
Although the suppressor removes the muzzle blast it is obvious that any supersonic projectile creates a ballistic crack, but this wouldn't be louder than .22 Magnum Rimfire. As the .300 Whisper is based on the .221 Fireball it has the same case head dimensions as the .222 or .223 cartridge & will fit - once rebarrelled & converted to a .300 Whisper - into most .222/.223 rifle & magazines.

The payload for the subsonic .300 Whisper ammunition is preferably in the 240-250 grain weight. Using anything under 220 grains is a waste of time as both energy & "yawing" effect diminish quickly with lighter projectiles. Considering the approximately 1040fps bullet speed needed for subsonic load only the projectile's weight can create sufficient energy. The "yawing" refers to the tumbling of these long 240 & 250 grain projectiles immediately after impact - a major part of the Whisper concept, disregarded or misunderstood by many. While they are stable in flight, even a cardboard target clearly shows the tendency of these bullets to tumble on impact, thus creating wounds far in excess of their "paper" ballistics. It is futile to look for the magic bullet that expands or mushrooms at subsonic speed - such a thing in a .30 cal sectional density doesn't exist, nor will experiments with cast lead projectiles lead to greatly improved result.

However, a hard & solid 240 grain Sierra Matchking turning over lengthwise is equivalent to a seven times caliber expansion! These high ballistic coefficient projectiles retain energy as well as sub MOE accuracy out to 200 yards & more. While the bullet leaves the muzzle at 1040 fps, at 100 yards it loses only 3%, travelling at 1011fps & at 200 yards it still keeps on motoring with a solid 984fps. As velocity is retained, so is the energy; muzzle 576 ft/lbs, 100 yards 544 ft/lbs & 200 yards 517 ft/lbs. Only beyond 250 yards does the energy start to drop below the 500 ft/lbs mark. Comparing this to your standard 9mm or 45ACP pistol Marlin Camp Carbine cartridges, the first one only makes around 230 ft/lbs while the latter 300ft/lbs at 100 yard line. It is no wonder that some military units previously using these pistol calibers in semi-autos or sub-machine guns have switched to the .300 Whisper.
While other common military rounds like the .308 or .223 show either over or under penetration, the .300 Whisper accomplishes the job silently & effortlessly. Special purpose projectiles ammunition, so called "helmet punchers" successfully penetrate automobile bodies, a task where almost anything short of a .50 BMG will have the occasional failure.
The .338 Whisper

The .338 Whisper is the logical step up for the energy hungry candidate, or one whose ambition involves amour piecing. Equipped with projectiles up to 300 grains, technically the .338 delivers 20% more energy than the .300 & has the potential to push sub-MOA accuracy beyond the 300 yard mark. The .338 Whisper is either on the .221 Fireball case - or more commonly on the 7mm Remington Benchrest case, which with its .308 case head dimensions & similar final length makes it the choice for converting many old hunting rifles (or AR10s) into silent stalkers. It does not offer the same super & subsonic versatility as the .300 Whisper, & only those .338 based on the 7mm case offer meaningful supersonic velocities.

A full house load with fast powder can push a 200 grain pill out the barrel at 2200fps. The favourite pick for such an exercise would be the 200 grain Nosler Ballistic tip. Often found to be too explosive in high power rifles, at such moderate speeds the Ballistic Tips provide both expansion & penetration - this combination with excellent accuracy & a high ballistic coefficient. Of course the silent, subsonic loads should be loaded below the speed of sound with preferably the heaviest & longest bullet the .338 caliber has to offer. Currently this is again the Sierra Matchking, here in 300 grain with a BC of 0.750 - as heavy & as wind slippery as it gets!
That the .338 Whisper offers many advantages over the .300 version for hunting purposes is more than doubtful. Already the .300 Whisper shows signs of over-penetration on small deer, ie. "Slipping through". Basically, what you can put on the deck with a .338 the .300 Whisper can do as well - sometimes better & cheaper.

The .510 Whisper
If ultimate energy & extreme reach are the highest ranking on your priority list, you might as well forget the .338, skip the .35,.375, .416 or .458 Whispers & graduate right away to the .510 Whisper. Only after having held a few rounds in your hand, does one start to understand why people buy such a costly item instead of a new car or home entertainment system. It simply has no comparison with any other normal firearm. The military of course loves it, because from 1000 yards a sniper can do serious material damage to all sorts of things with it. This without being detected through the bright muzzle flash & noise a .50 BMG makes.
Following the Whisper® concept of using extremely wind slippery, long & heavy projectiles, the .510 Whisper uses .50 BMG projectiles & best results in New Zealand have been achieved with the 750 (!) grain Hornady AMAX. a bullet 2.7 inches long! The short two inch case are CNC machined by Michiguns in the USA to 1/2 thou specs from virgin .338 Lapua Magnum brass. Special custom made, ultra fast twist .50 cal barrels are needed, & of course to begin a .510 Whisper project you'll need a solid actioned rifle, preferably of .338 Lapua Magnum size - such as a Sako TRG-S. The suppressor design gets highly demanding & so does the quality requirement for the rifle scope that allows you to shoot accurately at the distances this caliber is made for. That all doesn't come cheap - together with an adequate scope there will be little change left from 10 grand!
PHOTO to be posted later.
The reward of owning a .510 Whisper is that you can shoot (& carry afield) a .50 cal rifle without stirring up people in the next village. As a matter of fact you probably won't hear it outside a 10 acre lifestyle block. While the smaller Whisper calibers can be moderated with a good suppressor down to the noise level of a silenced subsonic .22, things become a bit more involved when you're dealing with a .50 cal. Although the projectile is kept below the speed of sound for subsonic loads, hence no "sonic crack", the amount of air pushed by the gaint bullet simply can't be fully absorbed in a suppressor if you want to keep it a reasonable size & weight. The report at the muzzle of a .510 Whisper is comparable to a .22 Short rimfire pistol fired from 40 yards away - sort of like a kid's cap gun.

Sub-MOA performance at all distances & groups of 5 inches at 600 yards are no major problem. Nonetheless, this is not a rifle you"ll want to waste $4 projectiles in printing clover leafs at a 100 yards. With a ballistic coefficient of 1.050 (!) & 750 grains of weight the AMAX projectile doesn't seem to slow down nor lose much energy over long distances. At 500-600 yards the bullet has barely lost 100 fps of its orginal subsonic muzzle velocity & still puts in excess of 1,500 ft/lbs. The humble .308 Win would put about half onto the scale, a .300 Win Mag. start to struggle keeping up, & it would require a .300 Rem. UltraMag to bet that. The modern long range 7mms & 30 cal Magnums display impressive energy data at the muzzle & below 300 yards, but above that the .510 Whisper starts to leave most of them behind - & this without making hardly any noise. While a 7mm Rem Mag loses 40% of its speed & 65% of it's energy by the time it reaches 500 yards, the .510 Whisper (subsonic) only loses 8% of it's muzzle velocity & 16% of it's energy For those who don't mind noise & recoil, the .510 Whisper can be loaded super- sonic which will speed up a 750 grain projectile to 2000fps, resulting in 5,300 ft/lbs of tank busting energy at 300 yards. Such energy levels are beyond most people's comprehension - you are in the league of the strongest "elephant guns" & it needs a full house .50 BMG to over shadow that.

As a practical hunting rifle a .510 Whisper has rather limited usefulness. Beside the joy of owning a no noise .50 cal that fits into any rifle bag (without the handle breaking off) - the only NZ hunting scenario where the animal size matches the bullet would be the largest wapiti or wild cattle beast. If your personal thrill is to hunt Wanganui's or Opotiki's wild bulls - then the .510 Whisper is definitely the ticket. Some local 'bovine tests' with a .510 have proved this to the fullest satisfaction - dropping the beast like a rock without a twitch.


Whisper rifle and conversions

Some years ago a small New Zealand company, TAG 2000 took on the board the task of representing SSK Industries by importing the essential parts & accessories for building up Whisper rifles. They can also supply the unique brass, dies & projectiles, plus loaded ammunition. All barrels (which come chambered) are made by SSK with the original tooling, & are then imported as half finished products. The heavy & slow Whisper projectiles, fired out of tiny cases with sometimes hardly a noticeable shoulder, do not allow for any reloading tolerances or mistakes - if you want the promised results that is.
There have been numerous copycat Whisper, Whisper look-alikes, DIY projects & after-market tooling popping up in the land of "Number 8 wire Technology", all trying to re-invent the wheel. It didn't help to call it a "300-221" or “.300 Murmur” to circumvent the registered caliber protection, & copies mostly had one thing in common - they did not perform as well as the original. It takes some failures to realize that building a good Whisper rifle is not your standard .308 rebarrelling job.
There's a bit more to it.

Leaning from others' ill-experience, no short cuts are taken by TAG 2000. Only SSK chambered Shilen match grade barrels are used as these have proved to be the best. This is not about putting down other fine barrels, it's just that hard projectiles with a long dwell time have their own preferences which go beyond the nominal caliber or twist rate attributes.
Most conversions for .300 & .338 Whisper rifles are based on new or customer's second hand rifles & parts are supplied as kits which put together under contract by gunsmith, Arther Cleland in Hamilton, who not only has commendable experience in making fine rifles but is now well instructed on the various Whisper conversions. Then the rifles go back for the final touch, test fire & quality control. As standard procedure all rifles get a trigger job, the actions are bedded & barrels are floated. It might be uncommon, but it is risk free for TAG 2000 to supply every Whisper rifle (made with original parts under their supervision & control) not only with a sub-MOA accuracy guarantee, but also with a lifetime warrenty for the barrel.

In the USA there are rifles with well over 10,000 rounds through them & still maintaining their original accuracy. It's difficult to "shoot out" a barrel when it hardly gets warm. As a finishing touch many Whispers are Milspec coating providing these pre-loved rifles with a completely new look. Modern .223 Sakos or Tikkas are the best raw material for a .300 Whisper conversion. Some older .222/233 rifle models like the Brno Fox or the Remington 788 with the narrow box magazines will struggle to take the larger projectiles sizes. While still an A cat rifle in NZ, the popular Ruger Mini 14 is a good, but expensive choice for a semi-auto conversion. If equipped with the adjustable gas port (available as "M14 - Evolution" option) it allows silent operation for shooting subs in the single shot mode without the action rattling - as well as semi-auto mode for supersonic ammo, all by the flick of a switch. Though it's heavy, double lock action it also becomes more accurate than most bolt action rifles - the opposite of what the Mini 14 is normally known for!

Suppressor for the Whisper

Importing suppressor for Whisper rifles turned out to be prohibitive for the local SSK dealer due to US export restrictions. Hence the specially designed Whisper suppressor are made under contract in New Zealand by Mark Percy, PES®, a well experienced company in this specialized field. After a couple of years of R&D & model improvement, the local production matches the SSK original in performance while still being affordable. J.D. Jones under US Law could not even send the plans for the suppressor so we had to work from scratch. According to US Military tests, a suppressed .300 Whisper stays below 119 dB while a .510 Whisper only measures up to 126 dB.

Whisper suppressors are different from your normal full house high power centerfire suppressor. They have to handle low pressure from the relatively small powder weights behind the long projectiles - they are smaller in diameter, shorter, & of much lesser weight - more an over-bore .22 silencer. Suppressed Whisper rifles therefore don't tend to get bulky. out of balance, nor too long or heavy.
For length style or back to the action suppressors are available, but these only serve for better looks in the eye of the beholder who is willing to carry those extra ounces. A unique mounting system was developed for these models to avoid negative interference with normally free floating barrels.

Reloading the Whisper®

As long as you stick to the recommendations, in particular regarding the preferred projectiles & powder, reloading the various Whisper cartridges is a no-fuss task. Whisper reloading dies, brass & loaded ammo are now locally available for the popular calibers. Tiny powder charges & the almost endless lifetime of the brass means that the reloading cost practically boils down to the cost of the projectile. As long as you don't try to copy a .308 Win with hot supersonic loads & stick to moderation, you seldom have to trim your cases either. After 20 consecutive subsonic reloads there is no measurable case head expansion or case length. There is ample reloading data available from TAG 2000 based on common available powders in NZ. Many US books, internet sites & SSK themselves also provide reloading data for an array of powders & projectiles in all calibers.

Depending on barrel length & the type of weapon used, caution has to be taken when standard reloading data is not followed. Short military or pistol barrels as well as gas porting in semi-autos may vary your pressures & muzzle velocities to the extent that subsonic load can easily become sonic. One tenth of a grain of powder can change the velocity by 30-40 fps. While this is not a big deal when reloading .223 or .308 - supersonic Whisper loads for example - it can make all the difference when the intention is to stay under the speed of sound. Furthermore, the speed of sound has a nasty habit of changing considerably with temperature, humidity & altitude. A quiet load developed & tested during winter at sea level can surprise you with aloud bang in the mountains on a summer hunting day. Your first shot out of a clean & lubed barrel can sometimes cause the bullet to jump the sound barrier as well. But once those experiences are taken into account things can be mastered with few easy adjustments.
A range of powders are useful for reloading the Whisper. In general, fast burning powder like AR2205, Reloader 7, Hodgdon 110 or Winchester 296 are excellent for accuracy & velocity with practically all bullet weights. The last two powders, actually identical, are also very fine grained & easy to measure. With a decent powder thrower H110/Win 296 will most likely measure more accurate than your scales will be able to read. By throwing ten loads in the pan, weighing the lot & then dividing by ten, you can actually achieve two digit accuracy after the dot, eg. 9.35 grains or so. This is very useful for fine tuning subsonic loads. Once the powder thrower & bullet seater are adjusted you can actually pump your .300 Whisper cases through a progressive press & still expect load of sub- MOA accuracy.

Of course reloading can become like fly-tying an obsession when you're trying for the ultimate result. A 0.17" five-shot group printed at 100 yards with a .300 Whisper would be the bench mark here. Reloading the Whisper is not necessarily finicky however, nor should it over-test your skills.

Hunting with a .300 Whisper®

The obvious advantage of hunting with a Whisper is that it doesn't disturb the area you are in - important if you're on the fringes of farmland or close to life style blocks dwellers. Furthermore, your hunting mates in the back country areas will appreciate the silence. It often happens that three guys return to the hut, one smiling, one with a question mark on his face & the third, angry: "Just as I lined up that stag I heard a BOOM from the next valley & the deer took off". That doesn't happen with a Whisper, nor will you have to walk those extra miles the next day because the deer have moved out or become very jumpy after hearing a shot from a big bang caliber. It is not uncommon to be able to retain your hunting opportunities day after day within just a couple of hundred yards of your camp as long as the shots fired are from a Whisper rifle.

Using a Whisper will not only save on leg work but also on the meat loss caused by high power rifles or fast, light bullets. A slow heavy projectile does not create 'Hydro-static shock', the culprit that causes severe meat bruising. Shots though the front legs don't result in wasted venison. The deer's reaction to those quiet shots is different too.

Any shot from a high power/high report rifle will hype up an animal (unless it's killed on the spot), causing an adrenaline packed flight. Deadly wounded it maybe, but it can still run further than it should. The meat quality also suffers from this panic-derived hormonal release into the blood stream. Every butcher, & especially pig farmer, will verify this fact.

A direct hit with a Whisper is always confirmed by the thump, similar to shooting possums or rabbits with a suppressed .22 rifle. The impact of 240/250 grain bullet is louder than the rifle's little pop, which of course also travels at the speed of sound (together with the bullet) towards your target. The sound of the bullet striking the animal, passing through & impacting in the background, is the loudest thing you'll hear.
With lung shots in particular, or hits with little bone resistance, the animal may show no reaction at all & continue grazing before it collapses. Other soft-hit animals may initially trot away but either collapse or bed down quickly within a hundred yards, not really knowing what went on. One has to see this to believe it. Hit or miss, if the animal wasn't aware of you before you fired it may well move towards you, in reaction to the bullet impact behind it. Entry wounds are hardly noticeable, although the knife-like exit wounds can be inches long, small slits that bleed profusely often with parts of organ hanging out. The real damage is only revealed when you start cleaning up the animal. Little meat is spoilt but the inside can be a mess caused by the tumbling, cutting projectile. The further away & the bigger the animal - the bigger the internal destruction caused by this yawing effect.
Bow hunters will recognize some parallels to the above, & they too have to deal with a 'rainbow trajectory' that requires a good judgment of their quarry's distance. The Whisper may be super accurate & retain ample energy for long distance shots, but it is not a flat shooting cartridge. Within the first 100 yards you can get away with some "Kentucky windage" & only a plus/minus 3 inches correction is needed. From there on you'll need to be able to estimate the distance with some precision, because the bullet may drop another 3 FEET before reaching the 200 yard mark!

With a Whisper the most practical & fastest way to accurately hit your target in the field is to use a Mil-Dot scope. The solid row of dots on the reticle can be made out in dim light. Here they are not used for their original range finding purpose, but as multiple holding points. A good practice is to zero in your flat shooting supersoinc loads on the top dot & use all the lower ones for an array of distances is better done with a laser rangefinder. This solves the problem out to a reasonable distance without the need to fiddle with target knobs.
Should your hunting situation suddenly calls for a flat shooting cartridge where making a lot of noise isn't an issue - you can simply swap cartridges by loading your standard supersonic rounds (easy if your rifle has a detachable magazine). Most hunters only look at the Whisper because of its subsonic qualities. For some owner it takes years before they realize that they actually have two rifles in one. Many of them consequently retire their .223, 30-30 or .308 when they discover that a Whisper is all they need.

Roberts 151s disproove one of the conclusions in there...they DO expand subsonic.....
good article thanks for posting.

Yes there have been many advances in this technology since this article was written with softer light weight lead hollow points such as Roberts and pre cut expanding copper bullets like the Lehigh Defence bullets etc.

The whisper cartridges were designed to shoot very long heavy bullets through a fast twist barrel and were marketed to kill by tumbling on impact.
These days this school of thought has been lost and guys run all sorts of bullet weights and designs through their BLKs with often average results.
Even the Military are using 1-7" twists with 220gr SMKs instead of the 1-8" twist and 240gr SMK this cal was designed around.

The original .300 whisper used 17" long suppressed Shillan barrels had a 1-8" twist rate which shot the 240gr SMK extremely well and also shot the 125gr nosler ballistic tip equally as well which was the choice for the supersonic loading at the time.

Modern Blackouts now mostly use a 1-7" twist which dont shoot the new trend of mid weight subs or light weight supers anywhere near as well as the old Whisper rifles did with the 240gr and the 125gr.

You have to keep in mind that this article was written by Lucas who at the time was selling Whispers under licence by JD jones in USA.
The late JD fought and protected his right to the invention to the end but due to military involvement and new SAAMI specs and he was walked over and the cal was no longer a wildcat.

Ive owned three of Lucas's rifles over the years, all Remington 788s which were a common platform to build on then, two in .300 whisper and one .338 whisper. Ive since owned multiple copies and .300BLKs but none of them have shot the 240gr and 125gr as well as his builds did.

I put plenty of meet in the freezer with my trusty .338 whisper and 300gr SMK subsonics. I even put that rifle on paper at 600y during a F class range day with spectacular results.

To add insult to injury and to piss all over JD's grave someone is now releasing an "8.6 Creedmoor" ( .338 Blackout)... yip a cut down 6.5 Creedmoor case necked up to .338cal.

AKA .338 WHISPER which was a 7BR case necked up to .338cal yip... exactly the same.. it shot 300gr subsonic bullets out of a 1-8" twist barrel and supersonic 160gr to 2600fps.
Notice the constant reference comparing it to the .338 Federal and no reference to the fact its just a .338 Whisper. AKA .338BR... the very same wildcat round that's been around for 20 years.

https://kitbadger.com/8-6-creedmoor-vs-338-federal/

I have a 300 whisper,built by Lukas on a CZ 527 varmint.HS Precision stock.cases from 221 fireball.
My understanding of the 240grn matchking is not a tumble,the fast twist is upset on impact to Yaw.

Duh! as in the artical.

Yes my wording may have confused that sorry. They yaw and tumble after impact not (mid flight) creating long knife like wounds.

Good thread, I don't know much ( next to nothing ) about the Whisper / Blkout stuff.
Interesting idea.
From what I read / understand the 300 BLK has a reasonably limited range, 200 yrds ? Makes it limiting for open country.

I remember that article in New Zealand Guns & Hunting magazine and always wanted a JDJ whisper of some sort but the components where expensive and I was getting out of the bush more and out onto the tops doing more long range.
Now the last 4 years back into the bush stalking again with my trusty vizsla and 300BLK. Having a background into long range shooting and hunting has helped getting into the subsonic thing, consistent reloading, validating velocity and drops and using the right projectile for the job.
I’ve got 3 mates I reload for using the big heavy Rem 700 300BLK they are ok off the shelf rifle but too heavy and bulky for my liking and heard mixed results with the rugers. That’s way I went custom tikka 12” barrel short and light.

Having the 300 Whisper SAAMI speced to a 300aac Blackout, better subsonic projectiles, YouTube, easy brass cases to make has helped a lot in its popularity, time will tell how Hornady get on recreating the wheel and SAAMI specing the 338 Whisper to 8.6 Creedmoor.

Wingman,
is there any real difference between the 300 and the 338 in terminal performance?
208gr A-Max’s and 230gr Berger OMT, SMK 220g mostly penciled through requiring multiple shots, I’ve had the odd tumble in deer body shots but slow killing compared to The Lehigh’s are the quickest killers for body shots I’ve used so far. With the amount of shooting I do I don’t know if I can afford running a 338.?

Time to get my ass out of bed it’s my week off work and it’s time to kill some goats and get some venison for the cats I mean for the fridge.

Lukas Kruesi sold me my first paintball gun (a Kingman Spyder ) back in '98. I had no idea he was involved in stuff like .300 whisper.

Originally Posted by tikka

Wingman,
is there any real difference between the 300 and the 338 in terminal performance?
208gr A-Max’s and 230gr Berger OMT, SMK 220g mostly penciled through requiring multiple shots, I’ve had the odd tumble in deer body shots but slow killing compared to The Lehigh’s are the quickest killers for body shots I’ve used so far. With the amount of shooting I do I don’t know if I can afford running a 338.?

Yes the .338 had much better range and the 300gr bullet is longer than the 240gr .300 whisper bullets meaning bigger knife like wounds. The red hind in the pic above was taken at a little over 200y.
All those bullets you listed are not suitable for subsonic hunting. The .300 whisper was designed around the longer 240gr SMK and the WC 250gr which tumble through bone and flesh much better than a shorter bullet that will pencil through.

Ive sbot plenty of goats with both the .300 and the .338 whispers and had mixed results from boiler room shots from dropped on the spot to continued eating for close to a minute before falling over. Regardless of cal with subs a head or neck shot gets it done faster. Treat a heart lung shot like an bow hunter would.

Why cant the 300blk be compared to the 7.62x39?

So why can’t I just re barrel any old rifle to fit this caliber?

Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

Why cant the 300blk be compared to the 7.62x39?

Because the 7.62x39 commonly has a 1-10.5" .310" 312" bore not a .308" and wont shoot the long 240gr SMK.
Shooting 123-125gr bullets they are much the same.

Before I purchased my first .300 Whisper all those years ago I actually built a subsonic AK47 by using the military surplus 311" 180gr yellow and silver tip steel core loaded for the 7.62x54, they are a very long projectile so tumbled after impact like the 240gr smk inthe whisper, they are almost as long as the 240gr but lighter due to the steel armour piercing core. Loaded in the 7.62x39 case with 11.3 gr of 2207 cycled them through the AK action and spat them out at 1050fps.
They were great for popping goats quietly when out chasing deer and also took the od rabbit and possum at base camp

Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

Why cant the 300blk be compared to the 7.62x39?

You can now but when the whispers first came out, the technical info of barrel twist, dimensions, loads, and suppressor design was a well kept secret, the chamber reamer was protected under a patent meaning you had to get a rifle built to spec buy a official whisper retailer. There were many copy cats at the time the article was written and I think that comment was having a dig at the fact they were using slower twist barrels, the 1-8" was not a common twist in .308 at the time and JD had Shilen making custom runs for him with the correct twist to stabilize a 240gr at subsonic speeds. This meant the copy cats were also using lighter projectiles which as you can see by comments above are just not as effective as the 240gr SMK and 250gr WC

Now there is the .300BLK and the tooling, barrels and info is out there to replicate JDs .300 whisper perfectly.. yet people have forgotten its roots and its original design spec which in my opinion is important if you are hunting larger game with subsonic loads. If you're not using the fancy new wallet killing expanding copper subsonic bullets I highly recommend you decrease the chances of a tiny hole pass through and only shoot lager game with the longer 240gr SMKs.

300blk some bright spark decided that to mix a crappy 223 with an even more crapy 30cal projectile
Would make a good round sadly polishing 2 turds is harder than one