that's a 5 shot group of the day bag bro!!!:D but that makes me a wanker I guess...., oh well back to the drawing boardQuote:
Originally Posted by BRADS
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that's a 5 shot group of the day bag bro!!!:D but that makes me a wanker I guess...., oh well back to the drawing boardQuote:
Originally Posted by BRADS
Pretty sure this is what the OP and wanted.... Guys getting serious about proving points that have no point and getting into arguments that are Only relevant if we make them such.
What matters here is that you are happy with your rifle. No one has to prove to anyone else that they can shoot unless you are actually in a competition and the results will speak for themselves.
Whether the OP is serious or not only he will know but its been entertaining none the less.
Anger management, really? lol (means laugh out loud if you havent adjusted to young people talk)Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveh054
Myself, being one that has probably mentioned that i own a rifle capable of producing .5moa groups (a tikka t3 laminate 300wsm) takes a bit of personal offense when you call "us" (people with apparently impossible accuracy) "bullshittin' pricks"
Also, how can one prove their point if the haters (young person term) don't believe what they post is possible?
Me two bro:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Neckshot
You should of seen me group last night on a hare at almost point blank.......fukr is still running:)
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Original post = 1/4" or less, pay attention Dude you may learn to read the old way.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerazziSC3
Bugger you now I'm hungry:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Neckshot
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well i took your 1/4" post as a bit of an exaggeration....Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveh054
Please point out a single post on this forum claiming 1/4" accuracy from a sporting barrel? hell since your getting technical also show me that they were using a 3-9x40.
If you can't prove these details, why even start the topic (obviously for an argument, i quite enjoy arguing)
If you cannot, maybe i could arrange a counsellor for you to address the issue of seeing things that are actually not there
You have just proved my point...SonnyQuote:
Originally Posted by PerazziSC3
:pissed off: :pissed off: :pissed off: :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveh054
Yeah mate bring a counsellor and we can hold hands and sing songs while we shoot .1" groups. If that gets boring we can go back to mud slinging. Its much more fun and small groups are the opposite of what is desired....
Ps swap that barrel to 7mm08 and it will shoot .1 (nzhs tikka guarantee) i used to wet the bed and be scared of the dark until i got a 7mm08 and now light shines from my ass so bright and i have such self professed confidence andnverbal incontinence all my problems have gone away.
Edit to add. I actually think with the right shooter taking their time with that 223 consistent groups aroubd .25" arent out of the question.
Is it me or is this thread pretty retarded now?
Your a dick. No your a dick. No I'm a dick?!
Can't believe I just wasted 5 minutes of my life with this shit. Some of you cunts need to tear yourselves away from the key board and go for a walk.Stick your groups where the sun don't shine. Before anyone says anything - get fucked !!!
Come at me
She squats brahQuote:
Originally Posted by Nathan F
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan F
I was gonna photoshop a pic of just that over your avatar but best not
ok, i look forward to another one of your insightful threads about how guns cant be accurate and how everyone should be using a 303 because accurate guns are a mythQuote:
Originally Posted by Steveh054
5427 posts in a year ........
5428 nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Nathan F
Think VERY carefully before you respond to thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Nathan F
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Is that what I said?? bugger I seem to have missed thatQuote:
Originally Posted by PerazziSC3
Just wanted to be post #100 on thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibblet
I have been fiddling with mine for over 10 minutes in public and no one has said a thing:)
They probably just thought you had an itchy knee.Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
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Must be putting on a good show.Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
You suffering from masticration?
na, i'm bullshitin', thats what the bullshit brigade does, you should no that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveh054
Anyway this thread was good for a laugh, thanks.
or belly button!!:sick:Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Okay now that I have real internet again, I have a couple of points to make.
- 3 shot groups, particularly in isolation, do not give enough information to infer the true precision of a rifle. What is the true precision of a rifle? The maximum deviation of shots absent shooter error. A 3 shot group, from any particularly half-decent rifle, is likely to be much smaller than the maximum group size or "true precision". Look at Distant Stalker's target. In this case, there may be other factors that cause the apparent "POI shift" of the groups, but regardless it's a perfect example: multiple three shot groups that taken in isolation are ~*half moa*~ but when overlaid to give a truer picture of the precision of the rifle (more information!!) tell a different story. There's human error causing poi change (probably more than most shooters on here would like to admit), there's rifle error causing apparent POI change (again, possibly more than most would like to admit from their "half moa rifle"), and there's a combination of the two which is what we all will likely see. A single 3 shot group, even if it is "half moa" doesn't mean your rifle is a half moa rifle. Even multiple 3 shot "half moa" groups don't mean that necessarily, unless you take them in totality and compare mean displacement from point of aim. Firing multiple groups on one piece of paper allows you to compare them, and forces you to be honest with YOURSELF which is important, as it's too easy to handwave things in favour of the more ideal outcome...
A picture:
Attachment 14607
Hopefully this illustrates my point. A picture tells a thousand words...
- Next point: why should we care if our rifle is ~*half moa*~ or not? It may functionally shoot half moa 3 shot groups from a certain perspective, but does that mean we can hit a half moa targets? From a practical standpoint, that should be more important. In anything where we're trying to truely measure the precision of the rifle, ie competition or load development, wouldn't we want to do it in a way that gives us more information? It's become such a ridiculous point of pride to shoot pretty groups though that the end goal of actually getting information from them is often lost. Ie a forum member whom shall remain nameless not firing a fifth shot so as not to "ruin the group". Well you're not shooting a competition so the group size doesn't count for your score, what information are you looking for that a 5th shot would ruin it? If finishing your group would "ruin it", why were you shooting a group anyway as that's obviously not the best way to go about it? Obviously groups do help with information such as mean point of impact for zeroing, and obtaining the precision of a load for load development - but the more information for these, the better, to do it properly. I can't count the number of times I've seen people at the range shoot 2 or 3 shot groups to zero and been chasing their zero around the page. A combination of lack of information about true mean POI and bad shooting? Most likely. I think the internet has also fucked with expectations in that everyone posts pretty hand selected 3 shot groups. Internet group syndrome.
-Shooting groups is different shooting to hitting things. Again see Distant Stalker's targets. If we take his statement that it was his shooting causing the change in POI at face value, that tells us that regardless of whether you can shoot a nice ".5 moa" group, or 6 of them, it doesn't actually mean a damn thing in regards to HITTING things. But the emphasis on the internet and in magazines is all on "look at this 3 shot tiny group". When was the last time you saw someone posting about trying to improve the consistency of their shooting or asking how to?
This is actually a very good practical discussion and it'd be great if we could keep it that way please
You don't need one. Quartering a square/circle or centring an irregular shape is precise enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
Nice... I like the look of that overlaid group.
I guess "Precision" is based on what level of "Precision" you need.
Say I want to shoot small Varmints at ranges in excess of 300yds... I guess this requires a tighter level than the bush hunter shooting Deer to 200yds Max.
I also guess that we all want rifles that put one shot after the other in the same hole... But we either have to be exceptionally skilled , very lucky, or very rich to do so... Maybe a combo of them all.
I am learning with each forum thread I read. I would never be brash enough to say that I'm a good shot as I don't get enoughtime behind my rifle. But, I have shot some really tight groups with factory rifles and Nikon scopes. Can I do this all the time? No... Is it mainly me that is the problem? Yes.
The problem is that most people show their tightest group.. Not the ones that were "meh"...
Thanks for your post Gimp, I shall try that out next time I have some time behind the trigger.
+1 (except I don't have any Nikon scopes, my best groups have in fact been shot with a Nikko 3-9)Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimySquirrel
Am I personally consistent enough (or shooting targets often enough) to determine whether my rifle is always capable of 0.5 MOA with the right load? No, but a high enough proportion of groups are in that ballpark (with POI where I want it) to be pretty confident, and when they aren't I usually know from my own shooting before I even look at the target. I think an accurate rifle is essential for improving your shooting, otherwise you just blame the gun!
I don't mind people posting photos of their best groups though, its like race drivers posting in-car video of a really good lap - its saying "hey I'm really happy with this one", people aren't generally trying to say "oh I do this well every time".
Saying the overlay is a full picture/true precision of DS's rifle or him is not a fair indication, IMO. There is human error in the final overlay. A better indication would be the same amount of shots fired at the same aiming mark. Any small-bore/comp shooter, knows any change of target no matter how small requires adjustment in position to ensure MPI remains the same.
Unless his scope is buggered you only get a shift like that due to position or heat.
Yeah in the example provided i think human factors cant be seperated from rifle factors. Any change in grip, position etc can adjust poi so when rifle is mounted/dismounted between groups, moved to cool etc a poi shift between groups can be expected. I would have to shoot the test again without moving the rifle or changing.shooting position to expect to hit same poi each time. Each group is typically sho from same shooting position with same hand position and cheek weld pressure unless heat requires a quick blow down barrel and quick shot before mirage returns....
Because of this i still see the groups as independantly representarive of rifles grouping ability from that shooting position for that group. I suppose you could fire 15 shots at one aim point with consistant break between shots to avoid excessive heat and mirage but fatigue.may.become.a factor.the
Either way im confident in the precision of the rifle and becoming increasingly aware of the shifts that can occur from.subtle changes in body position/shooting technique
I'm not drawing any conclusions from your targets, but it's a great example because it shows that either your rifle is demonstrating the "apparent shift in poi" of "good" 3 shot groups within the larger precision of the rifle, or it's demonstrating the fact that shooter factors make shooting groups a lot different to "Actually hitting things" and not super relevant to it, which is something no-one ever seems to want to admit. Probably it's a combination of the two, weighted more towards shooter?
its an evolution I think, start with shooting for groups and end up at first round hits at varying ranges
Yip definitely agree with thatQuote:
Originally Posted by gimp
I'm sure most of you have seen this pretty sure it's 5shots
Steve054 that's something to aim for:)
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/25/duvehu8y.jpg
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I can't imagine anything more boring that you could do with a gun than bench rest. Competitive instrument calibration
I can shoot 1 hole groups all day long :thumbsup:
So can I. But I have found it tricky to get a good recipe for them. Always get bits stuck in my teeth too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kscott
As a matter of interest how do you guys measure your groups ,Taking furthest apart holes do you measure from inside to outside, center to center , or from outside to outside then deduct the bullet diameter ?
If you want to make it really interesting, try measuring the distance from the center of each of 5 bullet holes to the center of the point of aim , then add all these distances together, this is a "string" measurement .
