Howa 223 not shooting well and my quest to fix it

My buddy recently brought a brand new howa wood/blue hunter in 223
On my recommendation
Ive had dealings with probably close to 20 howa 1500 rifles everything from long action to the newish mini action
And all of them were tack driver’s
I currently own 2 and they both live upto those same standards

My mate just couldn’t get his to shoot and nether could i
We are both normally Reasonably good shots
He was useing very cheap ammo federal American eagle 62gn fmj
And pmc bronze I forget what bullet that was
But the best group we could get was like 3 inches which is just completely Unacceptable even considering the cheep ammo
the rifle is a 1:9 twist so should handle the 62’s no worries

So being a somewhat experienced handloader i done some handloads and tested a few loads
Still no good!

Just out of interest I screwed my dpt on to the factory threaded barrel
As all my howas have preferred being supressed

This did somewhat improve things as ive found it dose on most howa rifles
But apart from a couple of fluked groups at an inch or better
It was still far from where it should be in comparison to the other howas ive experienced

My mate left the right in my hands to explore
I had the stock off and noticed that the recoil lug was very poorly fitted to the stock
With heaps of space under it and a small amount of space arround it and the action fit in the stock was sloppy at best

So with my mates permission for obvious reasons I took to glass bedding the rifle
Ive glass bed several rifles before but this is my 1st time doing a howa
My two have been done by the smith

The bedding job came out awesome 😎

On top of that my mate has brought himself a supressor

My gut is telling me that the very poor recoil lug especially but all up horrible stock to action fit was 99% of the issue

Ill Cook up some handloads tomorrow with some hornady 50gn soft point and some 65gn serria game kings
As that will give us a couple of good tests one lighter one heavyer

Hope to head out to the farm Friday for a shoot so we’ll find out

What’s your thoughts?

Results will be posted
Cheers
Darryn

Took my Howa in 204 up to our private range to confirm zero's 2 weeks back. It shot 1/2" groups at 200m so called it good. Went to a farm to cull bunnies and magpies later that day and it was all over the place. Got home and found the action screws had come loose. Pulled the rifle out of the sock and noticed the wood stock had a bedding area touching the barrel about 2" from the front of the stock. WHile I had the action out of the stock I ground enough wood off to free float the barrel.

Went back to the range saturday to re-zero the rifle. Shot a group first to see what had happened after free floating the barrel. .....3 shots into 2 touching holes at 100m. Put a drop of loctite on the screws and torqued it up. Its now shooting 1/4" 3 shot groups at 200m.

All this to say say that the action screws can and will back out quite frequently on the Howa's according to the guys at Wills at Kumeu ..... when I called in to pick up some more factory ammo....

Fitting to the stock and the recoil lug is most likely the cause and from the sound of it you've fixed both.
Double grouping is a common indicator of bedding issues, the action recoils in the stock and with each shot moves between two different rest points. The result is sort of 2 groups, shot one eg shots goes left and high, shot 2 on point of aim, shot 3 back close to shot 1, shot 4 back towards shot 2 unless you Mark each shot it can be easy to miss the sequence.

my mini isnt that flash with 55 hornady steel case at around an inch. it is a shame because I bought the rifle to use it up
my ar15 would stack it with both barrels it had
im hoping it has a bit more accuracy but possibly just need to go up in projectile weight and find something the 1-8 barrel likes

I also like to recrown rifles that are being troublesome if not remove a few inches of barrel

Iv been reading quite a few threads recently about screws being too long affecting accuracy
both from the front base and also from the underside winding into the threads of the barrel
i looked at a few of my rifles and one definitely was having a problem with it

I have had issues with most new howas re bedding.
By the time you pay to get it bedded and get a trigger job done just go buy a tikka.
I'm sorry but it's the truth!

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Just keep the powder charges down in those hand loads you are rolling from the thermonuclear Rambo loads I've had the joy of firing. :XD:

If it's new, and didn't shoot right I'd just take it back for another one under the Consumer Guarantees Act.... Probably too late now though if it's been bedded....

I've got one in 7.62 x39 shoots 1 inch groups and goats with chinese mil surp, can't complain.

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Originally Posted by dogmatix

Just keep the powder charges down in those hand loads you are rolling from the thermonuclear Rambo loads I've had the joy of firing. :XD:

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That was a good load that one Hahaha

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Originally Posted by andyanimal31

I have had issues with most new howas re bedding.
By the time you pay to get it bedded and get a trigger job done just go buy a tikka.
I'm sorry but it's the truth!

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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I agree and disagree
If you’re a rich bugger ond don’t mind paying Exorbitant money for a basic rifle
Go tikka 100% aggree
If you don’t mind spending the time glass bedding and trigger jobs are all but free
The hact trigger is so easy to work on you’re self
And glass bedding is easy if you have the compound which I get for free

Most howas ive played have shot well out of the box
But id rather save $5-700 and do a bit of work if need be

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Originally Posted by rambo-6mmrem

I agree and disagree
If you’re a rich bugger ond don’t mind paying Exorbitant money for a basic rifle
Go tikka 100% aggree
If you don’t mind spending the time glass bedding and trigger jobs are all but free
The hact trigger is so easy to work on you’re self
And glass bedding is easy if you have the compound which I get for free

Most howas ive played have shot well out of the box
But id rather save $5-700 and do a bit of work if need be

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Fair call but a commercial bedding job is $300 and trigger job $100 and you get the tack driver out of the box when ya buy a tikka.
I have never seen a dud tikka but a few howas that havnt gone well out of the box.
Just saying


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Originally Posted by andyanimal31

Fair call but a commercial bedding job is $300 and trigger job $100 and you get the tack driver out of the box when ya buy a tikka.
I have never seen a dud tikka but a few howas that havnt gone well out of the box.



Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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Exactly mate
Ive had Several tikka’s and they are fantastic apart from the price
I just prefer howa even if the very odd one does have issues
As I have enough experience with them I can easily fix them
Out of all the howas ive delt with only 2 have been less than satisfactory and a couple of hours work has brought them right back to tack driver statis

Comes down to personal preference

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andyanimal31

I have had issues with most new howas re bedding.
By the time you pay to get it bedded and get a trigger job done just go buy a tikka.
I'm sorry but it's the truth!

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There's nothing wrong whatsoever with the barrelled action. You might have seen what mine do on some of the videos. What's let Howa down in the past is the stocks. If you have 5 mins, take a look at the current Legacy Sports catalogue, to see what they've done about that.

But there are some wonderfully OTT expressions of nonsense about what to do about them. Like go buy a Tikka, that's quite a good one.

The Hogue stock needs the application of a scalpel for about 2 minutes to fix. It's already pillar bedded. Just trim off the overmoulded rubber at the tip of the forend. Job done. You can pull down on the forend with a bipod as much as you like, ain't gonna touch after that. And try go hunting in mid-winter rain and mud with the rubber coated stock - I love them for their grippiness and toughness.

Attachment 131601
Attachment 131602

I own Tikkas too. Both laminated stocks needed pillar and epoxy bedding as they shifted around enough to chew the lip of the silly alloy recoil lug. Which needed replacing with a stainless steel or titanium one. And the bottom metal sorry plastic is prone to compressing the laminate, so I've had to epoxy bed that too.

Both plastic Tikka stocks I own required pillar bedding.

And who pays for bedding jobs anyway? Easy as, just take yer time.

Just sayin'....

Nothing's perfect mate.

EDIT

OH YEAH! I almost forgot. Get some lighter trigger springs from the Gunbloke for $15. Job done.

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Originally Posted by Flyblown

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with the barrelled action. You might have seen what mine do on some of the videos. What's let Howa down in the past is the stocks. If you have 5 mins, take a look at the current Legacy Sports catalogue, to see what they've done about that.

But there are some wonderfully OTT expressions of nonsense about what to do about them. Like go buy a Tikka, that's quite a good one.

The Hogue stock needs the application of a scalpel for about 2 minutes to fix. It's already pillar bedded. Just trim off the overmoulded rubber at the tip of the forend. Job done. You can pull down on the forend with a bipod as much as you like, ain't gonna touch after that. And try go hunting in mid-winter rain and mud with the rubber coated stock - I love them for their grippiness and toughness.

Attachment 131601
Attachment 131602

I own Tikkas too. Both laminated stocks needed pillar and epoxy bedding as they shifted around enough to chew the lip of the silly alloy recoil lug. Which needed replacing with a stainless steel or titanium one. And the bottom metal sorry plastic is prone to compressing the laminate, so I've had to epoxy bed that too.

Both plastic Tikka stocks I own required pillar bedding.

And who pays for bedding jobs anyway? Easy as, just take yer time.

Just sayin'....

Nothing's perfect mate.

EDIT

OH YEAH! I almost forgot. Get some lighter trigger springs from the Gunbloke for $15. Job done.

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Even cheaper option is a ball point pen spring cut to length and installed in place of the factory spring

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Originally Posted by rambo-6mmrem

Even cheaper option is a ball point pen spring cut to length and installed in place of the factory spring

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yeah nah I'll pass thanks mate!

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Originally Posted by Flyblown

yeah nah I'll pass thanks mate!

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Fair enough not for everyone
I still have the original spring I can put back in 2 minutes
But it seems to be perfectly good 1.8 lb on the Lyman trigger scales
Breaks bloody awesome and won’t go off when knocked hard trust me ive tryed hard to make it go without pulling the trigger I can’t get it to go off without my permission ie pulling the trigger

It’s probably not 100% drop safe I get that but 99% of the time it’s shot off a bench rest and single feeded off bags so chances of it getting dropped with a round in the chamber is arround 0.00%

I've done the pen spring job in a couple of rifles, works a treat. Absolutely no safety or reliability issues. The 3.5" floppy shutter spring works well on the Marlin Semi's too.

yeah iv done it on countless 22s too
probably on centerfires too
you gotta break a lot of pens to find the "right spring" dont use the first one you find

I still have 3 Howas, In 7RM, 708 cut down and a 223. so Obviously i'm sold on them. I have had a play with the old Tekka and wasn't impressed, didn't like the feel but that's just a personal preference thing.

To be honest if I bought one that couldn't thread a needle I'd just take it back and ask for a replacement.

I have bedded and stiffened the fore-end on my RM but the others I have just left as is. all of them i have polished up the trigger and adjusted where I want it. As for getting it so light you need a pen spring I just don't see the point for a hunting rifle. I personally don't think it is worth it, Triggers don't make rifles more or less accurate, factory with a little tickle up they are good to go. for the lighter 20" light 1500, there is plenty of clearance on the fore end. I only did it on the big boy as I run a bi-pod.

so how did it shoot

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Originally Posted by northdude

so how did it shoot

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Will be finding out Monday/Tuesday we are waiting on a new scope for it
Well new to him a fixed 12x leupold target scope
Hasn’t arrived yet
Won’t be going on the rifle full time but will be perfect for accuracy test/ load development
@northdude ive finished with your tool
I’ll return it tomorrow at some point
I’ll text you

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Originally Posted by Huntfisheat

That's possibly the least accurate statement seen here. Triggers can make a huge difference.

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Triggers make a huge difference for those who cant shoot well. Sorry if it sounds harsh but unless it's like 10 pounds and you can't muscle in, you should be able to shoot well with any trigger so long you stick to your fundamentals.

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Originally Posted by Huntfisheat

Should is a funny word. Everybody should love every body. But that's not how it works. And a trigger at 8lb with variances in creep and over travel will not be seen on a target rifle and why? Because they're shit and no one can shoot comparatively well with them. So your statement doesn't sound harsh. It simply sounds ill informed.

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These rifles don't have triggers that are 8 pounds though do they? out of the box they are perfectly serviceable is my point. For hunting, what these rifles are set up for, out of the box they are good to go.

in a technical sence @William is right a bad trigger heavy or creepy dosnt make a rifle more accurate or less accurate the only affects the shooters ability to shoot it accurately

although i have never met anyone capable (who has good enough trigger control) to shoot a 5lb trigger as well as a 2lb trigger
and i know alot of very good shooters

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Originally Posted by rambo-6mmrem

in a technical sence @William is right a bad trigger heavy or creepy dosnt make a rifle more accurate or less accurate the only affects the shooters ability to shoot it accurately

although i have never met anyone capable (who has good enough trigger control) to shoot a 5lb trigger as well as a 2lb trigger
and i know alot of very good shooters

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This is true and I agree, I'd prefer a nice, crisp, light trigger.
That is what I was getting at that the trigger isn't a technical component to accuracy. Practical accuracy might be a different story.
My point is more that the trigger they come with are very usable for hunting as they aren't that bad and are user adjustable.

I've never had a problem with either of the mini actioned 223, x39 or 6.5 grendel. simply Point, aim & shoot. Accuracy has been great ...if I aim straight. Rabbits, goats & deer all fall over so no worries.

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Originally Posted by Huntfisheat

Agreed. Yet some are gooder than others and it's easier to shoot well with a good trigger.

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Agreed, it always makes it easier. For what you pay over the top of some plastic fantastic Axis or a American it's pretty good for the money. I can't remember the Name Something like HAAT or something, the two stage triggers that ship with newer Howa's, it's not too shabby and has a lot of adjustment. For use as a hunting rifle you don't really want it too light anyway,
Shooting off hand after running up the side of a gully. You want a trigger to go off when you intended haha.
They have like a .5 pound take up and the break is adjustable from like 2.5 out to unusable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Huntfisheat

Agreed. Yet some are gooder than others and it's easier to shoot well with a good trigger.

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Agreed, it always makes it easier. For what you pay over the top of some plastic fantastic Axis or a American it's pretty good for the money. I can't remember the Name Something like HAAT or something, the two stage triggers that ship with newer Howa's, it's not too shabby and has a lot of adjustment. For use as a hunting rifle you don't really want it too light anyway,
Shooting off hand after running up the side of a gully. You want a trigger to go off when you intended haha.
They have like a .5 pound take up and the break is adjustable from like 2.5 out to unusable.

geeze you guys dont know what a bad trigger is...when I first got my winchester model 70 lightweight...you found a deer,dug a strainerpost hole,rammed in a strainer,tied the rifle to it and then hooked up a D7 to the trigger and pulled the winchrope lever....the rifle would fire just before Caterpillar motor stalled and hopefully the rifle was still pointed at deer!!!!!

that trigger is the easiest thing to adjust,right down to silly light in weight....I did have it way light but found 2lb is about right for me.
will watch this thread with interest as mates looking for a new rifle and any tips n tricks to get what he MIGHT buy are good to have.

Soo I finally got out to the range/farm paddock with a bench
I had some handloads i had cooked up with some 50gn sp sx hornady and cfe223
Accuracy improved a long way the rifle can now be called a consistent shooter Of arround the 1-1.1 inch 5 shot groups at 100m
It’s consistent that’s the main thing just gotta find a bullet it likes now

And im sure it will be a half inch gun like the rest

those spsx are SUPER soft....they used to do very nasty things to wallabies.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

those spsx are SUPER soft....they used to do very nasty things to wallabies.

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So im told
This rifle didn’t really like them though Shot them good enough to tell me ive fixed the issues
And its now just a matter of finding the right projectile/load��

rebarrel to 6x45 problem solved 🤔🤣😉