Iron Sights for 60+

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Here's some targets I shot with my Swiss K31. My eyes are older than most forum members. I use glasses for reading but nothing (well plain safety glasses) when shooting with irons, diopter or scopes.

Group 1 4x Nickel Scope, Group 2 irons. 102 yds. (I should note the K31 has vey nicely shaped irons particularly the notch in the rear sight.
Attachment 188414

Iron sights. AM was actually 6 o'clock under the black.
Attachment 188415

Iron sights. 100 yds. AM 6 o'clock under the black.
Attachment 188416

Diopter sights. 100 yds
Attachment 188417

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Good shooting. As an aside where do you get your targets/do you have a PDF handy for printing. I can never find good targets for open sight shooting.
I also have K31 and find the sight nice but that rear sight is a very small notch! Mine shoots to the right consistently (2-3" @50m) so my next range visit will see me trying to adjust that front sight. Which is surprising as the front sight is staked so I'm assuming an armorer once upon a time sighed it in.
Anyone have one of the front sight adjusters for a K31? Otherwise it's a hammer and brass punch/drift.

Reading the manual for the K31 online It seems the aim point within 200m was intended to be dead on and them beyond was centre of mass aim point (with projectile hitting higher) if I recall correctly.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

One rifle I would have trouble shooting now is my PH Musketoon. It has a rear sight very close to the shooter.

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@zimmer better sell me the musketoon then

I am planning a 577 cartridge rifle build
But I really do need a P63 as I have 3 different molds

Front sight is still clear to me but back sight is a blur. I open out my rear sights with a chainsaw file and use them like an aperture. Works.

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Originally Posted by Sarvo

With a normal scope I look over top of glasses - which is good as I can keep then on for field use

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I do that with scoped rifles because my prescription glasses seem to distort the image as The magnification increases , but with the Red Dot having now magnification it isn’t a problem .
I will mention that I use a special pair of glasses when I’m shooting competition Clay Targets . They are set up to sit high on my nose and the optometrist got me to hold a broom like I shoulder a gun and took measurements of where my pupil was in relation to the frame .
I think it had something to do with the fact your head is forward and your looking out of the top of the lenses so they had to be ground differently .
I’m not a hundred percent sure of the technicalities of that , but they are perfect for Shotgunning.

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Originally Posted by Makros

Good shooting. As an aside where do you get your targets/do you have a PDF handy for printing. I can never find good targets for open sight shooting.
I also have K31 and find the sight nice but that rear sight is a very small notch! Mine shoots to the right consistently (2-3" @50m) so my next range visit will see me trying to adjust that front sight. Which is surprising as the front sight is staked so I'm assuming an armorer once upon a time sighed it in.
Anyone have one of the front sight adjusters for a K31? Otherwise it's a hammer and brass punch/drift.

Reading the manual for the K31 online It seems the aim point within 200m was intended to be dead on and them beyond was centre of mass aim point (with projectile hitting higher) if I recall correctly.

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@Makros I've created a lot of different targets using a CAD program. The first target I posted is a rectangle the exact width of my Nickel scope post at 100 yds. The round targets match the width of my K31 foresight at 100 yds and are also the right dimension for the ring foresight I use when the diopter sight is fitted.
I can send you some pdf files if interested.

My foresight fortunately was not pegged and I was able to drift it the required amount. I was able to calculate how much I needed to move it so hammered it at home initially. I measured using a vernier the amount adjusted.

A few year ago I thought I would buy a genuine foresight adjuster. I gave up when I saw what people were paying for them. It also seemed that some canny Swiss sellers were trickle feeding them into Ebay and realising big prices. Likewise the diopter sights.

Yes, I was aware of short range long range aiming point with the rear sight. I have only shot reloads in mine so don't know how they shoot relative to the GP11 ammo for which the rear sight would be regulated for.

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Originally Posted by Ground Control

I do that with scoped rifles because my prescription glasses seem to distort the image as The magnification increases , but with the Red Dot having now magnification it isn’t a problem .
I will mention that I use a special pair of glasses when I’m shooting competition Clay Targets . They are set up to sit high on my nose and the optometrist got me to hold a broom like I shoulder a gun and took measurements of where my pupil was in relation to the frame .
I think it had something to do with the fact your head is forward and your looking out of the top of the lenses so they had to be ground differently .
I’m not a hundred percent sure of the technicalities of that , but they are perfect for Shotgunning.

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I have some similar, also got mine tinted an amber colour to help the clays stand out.

I use a target like an upside down capital T for zeroing iron sights - it works better for me than round targets, squares or the like.

It also works well with post reticle scopes.

Attachment 188464

If the front sight is in focus and the target is enough in focus then you can shoot open sights quite happily. THe problem is when you close vision goes so bad that you cant keep the front sight in focus. Ayway you dont have that problem so all is well.

Dont worry about the back sight it doesnt have to be in focus. I very much prefer a open rear sight, either a shallow V (what they call express sights ) or a notch, and a front bead. The front bead should be metal and filed on a backwards 45 degreee angle so it catches the light from above - so it shows as white. I file all my beads this way.
At a hundred yards an open V rear sight and a white front bead can be as accurate as a scope, I know because I have done a lot of shooting with them. Out to 200 metres you are good. Further 200 yards unless it is in quite open country, a peep sight rear will be better.

But I am suspicious of peep sights on hunting rifles. They are excellent for target shooting, but on animals they are too dark if they are small, and if they are wide ""ghost ring"" style then one tends to have inexplicable misses, which I figured out was because under pressure I wouldnt bother centreing the front sight. I know all the theory - no need to tell me the eye ""automatically centres the front sight etc"" I have found there is a point of diminishing returns with wide ghost ring sights. You can have too much ghost. But you wont know till you miss a few animals with it...
So I went back to the shallow open v rear sight and a front bead.
Currently I am working with a Husqvarna 9.3x62. Husqvarna put excellent open sights on their rifles. THe only question is whether you keep the rear sight as a notch, or open it out to a shallow V with a file.

in use, the open v (or notch) rear sight is used thusly: the front bead is kept low in the crotch of the V so the only thing you see of the front sight is the round white bead itself. The point of impact should be through the centre of the bead, (not the top of the bead) You do this by shooting and sighting it in to put the point of impact lower than the target and where you just the centre of the bead would lie. You can draw a circle on the paper and judge the size of it at each distance back at the rifle, sighting along it and seeing where the bead area is against the target. Then sight it in for the centre of this area, leaving the usual extra height - three inches high at 100 yards for example, or whatever you prefer.
When you target shoot with it - you use the six oclock hold (or lollypop the bead uder the target bullseye) to achieve the above. But then, once this is achieved and you are shooting at deer, you shoot through the centre of the bead. This is how it was done in the old days and is very similiar to using a red dot sight. You should through it keeping both eyes open. I used to use a ""six oclock"" hold on deer, but found I often shot high. Once I resighted my rifle to shoot through the bead after doing some studying, this effect went away. Under pressure you will naturally shoot through the bead.

(This is only for a front round bead sight, a notch and a front blade (such as on the old .303) is obviously different, you make the point of impact at the top of the front post, and you old the top of the post at teh top of the notch so its even. But in the darker bush you can loose where the top of the front post is. You dont get that with a bead front sight.)

To conclude - Use a shallow (or notch) v with a bead. (You can file the rear sight so its more of an open v is you want. IT doesnt really matter how the ""wings"" of the rear sight are to the bullet impact, only the depth of the v where you are going to put the bead when you are shooting. So you can go to the range, sight the rifle in and then file the sight to an open V when you get home. Long as you don't change how deep the V goes.
Out of interest the sights that come on the old Winchester 30/30's and the old Husqvarna rifle are about good as they are.

So, I dont put an aperture sight on a hunting rifle, unless the rear sight is so close that it is really too blurry to see.
Keep the front bead low in the V so your hold is always consistant.
Sight your rifle in so you can shoot through the bead on animals. But use a six oclock hold when target shooting.

This is what I have learned over many years of experimenting with irong sights. Also, a six inch black bull on A3 white paper is about right for a target, but if you have trouble picking out the front sight against the white paper, then use a white bull against a black background - or even better - a medium grey.

Have no trouble getting good focus thru most scopes without glasses, but not the earlier Leupolds. Can't get focus on open sights, V ok but not the blade. Used red torch regular for a couple of years and found my eyesight deteriorated over that time. Found it hard on the eyes. Have glasses but don't hunt in them, thinking of contact lens?

Fantastic, thanks @JohnDuxbury that is really good info. Thanks to all for this fantastic response, I'm learning a lot. And @zimmer that sure is good shooting - an inspiration.
@tetawa, I use contacts, and my regular glasses, and special shooting glasses. Contacts are better in the rain (obviously) but even if they are the right prescription they tend not to give you the sharpness of vision at distance that you get with good glasses. But you do get better field of view, and less hassle, no glasses slipping down the nose etc. And no fogging, which is such a pain. For the iron sights, I'm amazed at how much better the shooting glasses are. These are all progressive lenses, but the shooting glasses are ground so the eyeline works better when you have your head down and looking through the sights. The glass comes up higher above the eyes. (Hence you get that classic "rapist glasses" look, lol.) If you can focus on teh V but not the blade, I guess you must be short sighted, so yeah, hunt in the glasses, but get progressive lenses and talk to your optometrist about how to get the grind right to suit hunting/shooting activities. It's slightly different than normal glasses. That would be my suggestion. Contacts might work for you if you can focus on the blade with them, though.

Before I was rich enough to afford a scope I used to squeeze a ‘blob’ of silver paper (foil) on the foresight when hunting in low light in bush.

Was easier to pick up and didn’t noticeably affect the point of impact at the ranges was shooting (35-40 yards tops)

And a dob of white paint each side of the rear sight ‘V’ helped too.

Yes. Or a white line etched or painted on the rear sight down from the bottom of the V is helpful.

If you wear glasses and are shooting do not try to use the Progressive lenses . The way they work is by having the magnification changing by how you look through the lens which causes distortion because you are trying to look at an oblique/increased angle and not straight ahead as they are designed to be used .
Personally I hate them as they are just a pain in the arse because for clarity you have to look at things directly/straight at them or try to look down when close up.

A big bit of this is in your head. I'm 60 and have worn glasses for short sightedness since I was 20 or so.

Recently I started shooting my Dads 303 with open sights again with it's open sights. It was always an accurate rifle for a SMLE and nothing has changed apart from the fact that I removed the scope I added (Dad always shot it with open sights).

Remembering my small bore training of 45 years ago when we won several national Interschool shoots due mainly to a superb instructor whose name I don't recall . . . His mantra was "don't try to focus at all on the rear sight, let your eye do it naturally. I have been very pleased to find that advice is still sound at 60. The less you think about the rear sight whether it's a diopter or notch, the better you'll shoot.

Itll take some practice to get you mind round it though!

With irons you focus on the fore sight. It is acceptable that the target will appear greyish/fuzzy.
Diopter/aperture sights are looked through not at (yeah takes practice as @Tentman has pointed out) and the mind will auto centre through the centre of the aperture.
The larger hole in the aperture the better. Many think a small hole aids accuracy. 1.2mm or bigger was optimum in smallbore.

There used to be stories in one of the British target shooting mags of the day of an old shooter (long ago dead) that used to train the newbies. His party piece was to shoot with the rear adjustable aperture removed and sighting just through the threaded hole. He would thrash everyone. Another one of his teachings was position, position, position. He would challenge the young shooters to a contest. They all fully fitted with sights. He with the whole adjustable aperture sight removed and just aiming with the foresight ring. He would still beat them.

When I shot fullbore I used a foresight ring element that framed all 4 corners of the target. Only issue with that was if the markers didn't push the target fully up every now and then you got a bad elevation shot. I later went back to using the black aiming mark.