Thread: mil/moa basics - everything you've ever wanted to ask...

right, so based on the other thread, let's do some basic education re mil / moa

remember, there are no stupid questions, so ask away.

i think the big thing is to remember that both systems are simply angular measurements, the only real difference is the units of those measurements.

so think of two lines, starting at a particular point. for illustration purposes, lets say one line flat along the ground, and the other rises steadily. kinda like two lines moving appart 30 degrees or 45 degrees, only a much smaller angle...

for moa (minute of angle), the angle between the two lines is 1/60th (a minute) of 1 degree (360 degrees in a circle right).

for mil (milradian/milliradian), the angle is 1/1000th of a radian. a radian is the angle you get when you take the radius of a circle, wrap it around the outside edge of the circle, and connect the two ends with the center. so it is a 1000th of that angle.

the most important thing to remeber is because these are both ANGULAR measures, they translate to different sizes at different distances.

taking MOA, the two lines indicating the angle, are about 1 inch apart at 100 yards, 2 inches at 200 yard etc. if you want to be pedantic it is actually 1.047 inches at 100 yards, but you get the idea...

talking MILS, at 1000m the lines are 1m appart. at 1000yards the lines are 1 yard apart, with mils it is always 1/1000th

now if you want to start comparing them, it is easiest to work at 1000yds to start off.

at 1000yds (100 x 10), 1 MOA is roughly 10 inches (1 x 10)
at 1000yds, 1 MIL is 1 yard (or 36 inches)

hope I did not make any mistakes with the math and that this all makes sense

i'll leave it there for now, see if that makes sense, we can go over practical application of both systems later...

I use moa

Originally Posted by 7mmsaum

I use moa

Congrats

In terms of practical applications of these systems, it is probably best to deal with "click" values at various distances first, and then discuss ranging as a separate post.

To answer the question "how many clicks must I come up ?" you need to do a couple of things. We are going to ignore the reticle complety for now, just use it as if it is a simple crosshair type reticle...

You need to know what the click value of your scope is, it's pretty common that this is written on the turret somewhere. For MOA turrets it is typically 1/4 MOA but there are scopes with 1/8 MOA clicks. For MIL turrets it is typically 1/10th MIL.

Ok, so now the most important question to ask irrespective of MOA or MIL, is "what size is a MIL or MOA at the distance I am shooting ?"

Imagine we are shooting on BRAD's farm, and using a supersize gong that Neckshot provided. It's the mother of all plates and is 100 inches across, so we can easily see where the shots land, and work out how much to move to get to the middle.

So if you work in MOA, and the plate is 100 yards away, 1 MOA will be roughly 1 inch. If we want to come up 4 inches, we know that is 4 minutes, and that means 16 clicks if our scope has 1/4 moa adjustments.

If the same plate is 500 yard away, 1 MOA will be roughly 5 inches. If we want to come up 4 inches, that will be 4/5 minutes or 0.8 minutes, so around 3 clicks should do the trick.

What you'll start to notice is the importance of knowing EXACTLY what distance the target is away from us = good range finder...

Now if we work in MIL, and the plate is 100 yards away, 1 mil will be 3.6 inches (refer to the first post if this does not make sense). So if we want to come up 4 inches, that will be 4/3.6 mils, so 1.1 mils or around 11 clicks if our scope has 1/10th mil adjustments.

when you work in mils, it is much easier to use metric, so lets put the target at 500m rather than yards. 1 mil will be 0.5m. if we want to come up 10cm (about the same as the 4 inches in the previous example), 10cm/50cm mils = 0.5mil, so around 5 clicks will get you close.

Question Ebf, how much would that gong plate cost? Bags not paying!

Originally Posted by Gibo

Question Ebf, how much would that gong plate cost? Bags not paying!

There's always one that goes of on a tangent!!!!

Originally Posted by Blaser

There's always one that goes of on a tangent!!!!

Yes maybe but it was only a 4.5 moa tangent

Ok then, so is moa related to inches/imperial and is mil related to mm/cm metric?

so what im saying is, is it better if using yards, feet inches for range finders and scope turrets to use moa,? and if using metres, cm and mm and rangefinding in metres for mils?

because, I do see a few people ranging in metres, converting that to drop in moa, then putting that into the scope.

is one more accurate than the other?

Originally Posted by Gibo

Yes maybe but it was only a 4.5 moa tangent

nah, 1.7779 mils!!!

Originally Posted by scoped

is one more accurate than the other?

I believe MOA is more accurate than MIL because the units/measurements are finer/smaller, not really an issue at normal ranges though.

Imperial target type scopes generally have 1/8 moa clicks so even finer again.

Originally Posted by scoped

Ok then, so is moa related to inches/imperial and is mil related to mm/cm metric?

so what im saying is, is it better if using yards, feet inches for range finders and scope turrets to use moa,? and if using metres, cm and mm and rangefinding in metres for mils?

good question

stricly speaking, no, both are just angular measures.

on a practical level, it does happen that MOA is easier to work with in inches and yards.

MIL, I dont think is really matters, you are always dealing with 1/1000th, so 1 yard at 1000 yards, 1m at 1000m, 1cm at 1000cm etc. the mental arithmetic involved in metric systems is definitely easier for most people.

Originally Posted by scoped

is one more accurate than the other?

nope, both just measure angles...

it also depends on your application. if you shoot at ICFRA targets, they are MOA based, so to some folks it makes sense to use MOA based turrets. but then again there are lots of guys shooting at those same targets using MIL reticles and mil turrets.

Greg raises an interesting point. I would say that one system has slightly finer gradations. Let's do the actual numbers to see the difference:

1 MIL @ 1000yds = 1 yard or 914.4mm, so a 1/10th mill click gives you 91.4mm movement
1 MOA @ 1000yds = 10.47 inches or 265.9mm, so a 1/4 moa click gives you a 66.5mm movement

so at a massive range of 1000yds you are looking at a 25mm difference. if you start adding shooter error, wind and all the other factors into it, that is just about irrelevant it is so small.

Please note that there is long range for us mere mortals, and then much, much, much further is Kiwi Greg range...

Ok so the scope on my marlin model 60 has a mildot reticle but yet the turrets are in inches (1 click = 1/4"@100 yards) how do I go about converting that to mil adjustments I know the 1/4 inch would equal around 6.5mm so would that mean 1 click on my scope would move it 6.5mm on each click? so would that equate to a movement of 2 mil if I were to work in mil.

1 mil = 3.5 MOA or 3.6" @ 100 yards.

Sent from my XT535

Originally Posted by hunter308

Ok so the scope on my marlin model 60 has a mildot reticle but yet the turrets are in inches (1 click = 1/4"@100 yards)

the turrets are not in inches, they are in MOA, specifically 1/4 MOA clicks. the distance this equates to depends on the distance you are shooting. so 4 click @ 100 yds = 1 inch. at 200 yds, 4 clicks will give you 2 inches.

Originally Posted by hunter308

how do I go about converting that to mil adjustments I know the 1/4 inch would equal around 6.5mm so would that mean 1 click on my scope would move it 6.5mm on each click? so would that equate to a movement of 2 mil if I were to work in mil.

i think what you are trying to do is using the mil-dot reticle to measure your holdover, and then want to convert that to 1/4 moa clicks ? correct ?

first thing to be aware of is that unless your scope is first focal plane, the reticle can only be used to measure/range at one magnification setting, typically max.

so lets assume the following: you are shooting at 100yds, your scope is set to the correct magnification for the reticle to be used. you see a 1 mil distance (low) between where your shot landed and where you want it to go.

1 mil is roughly 3.5 MOA, so now you know you want to move 3.5 moa up

to move 3.5 moa up in 1/4 moa clicks, you need to come up 14 clicks (3.5x0.25)

Makes sense ?