My mate has bought a Service Rifle, bugger!

He bought a nice cond 303B "as issued" for casual club comps. And the buggers don't want to know you if you only have a sporterized job, especially, for some reason, if it has a sensible optic on top. So I'm doing my research to acquire something that I can compete favorably with (I.e. beat him regularly @Mikej ). Naturally that rules out the Enfield 303.

So this post is not a WTB. Not that I'm averse to buying off the forum as I have a high regard for that from prior experience. What I'm really interested in is folks views on rifles to go for and respective traps and tricks. So here's my current thinking.

First I have too many old Enfields now in hunting configs to buy another. But given I have plenty of components, should I consider a good P14, if i can find one? My first criteria understanding assurances re accuracy will be difficult to get, will be a really bright clean bore with excellent rifling. The sights will be of the next importance. I don't shoot much with iron these days. At a mimimum I need to be able to see the front blade lol. But preferably a decent aperture sight and hopefully windage adjustment.. although, once I sort a load and make any necessary physical windage adjustments with a hammer nothing further will be required. After that the wood needs to be sound but does not have to be pretty - I am after a good shooter, not necessarily a top collector grade. That out of the way I'm now focused on calibre and make.

Top of my list is 6.5x55 Swede. I have a nice CZ 550 in this and all the bits and combustibles to go with it. A lovely agreeable calibre to shoot. A Carl Gustafson seems to be the ducks nuts for quality, and pricey for a top one. But there are others that would meet my basic criteria. Thoughts?

Second, would be 7x57mm calibre wise but I don't know much about "as issued" military versions or values or is what to look out for. I have one in an Interarms Mark X that is a delight to take walkabout and got me a nice fallow earlier in the year plus has stocked our freezer with goat. I like the calibre to shoot.

I've kind of ruled out the 6.5mm Carcano as an oddball projectile wise and for some reason despite its perfidous use in Dallas, I have doubts about inherent accuracy. I do have dies and brass but the family-promised sporterised rifle has yet to appear and its been a couple of years so not looking that likely. They are price friendly but there are good reasons for that I guess. Will probably get out of this calibre all together next 12 months if said rifle does not materialize.

I have no experience, components or gear for other calibres like the 8mm varieties that appear from time to time, ditto for Mosin Nagant and Arisaka.

So there ya go team. Have at it and let's hear your thoughts and advice. Oh, pricewise I don't have particular restraints but I won't be going silly spending thousands. Gotta protect my hard-earned rep as a tight arse....

I have a very nice No4 Mk1 with ladder sights and near new barrel in my safe. Happy to flick that. Thought I’d get into three oh’s but attitudinally caught by the Swedish 6.5x55 of which I have several. If you feel like visiting, you’re welcome to salivate, but I’m not really interested at this stage at selling my ‘41 Husky m38, nor CG M96, both mint, all matching condition. Could quit my 1900 Oberndorf (mismatched bolt tho) or perhaps the M93 CG target rifle with Soderin diopter sights.

I feel 6.5x55 cal is the bees knees. More than happy to discuss loads etc with you.

Enfield dominate the national level comps. 6.5 is more pleasant to shoot but don't see too many.

Enfield sights snd 10 round mag are advantages but I need to use a recoil pad to compete.

Source: me no1 in nationals last year, no2 this year using no4 mk2

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Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

Enfield dominate the national level comps. 6.5 is more pleasant to shoot but don't see too many.

Enfield sights snd 10 round mag are advantages but I need to use a recoil pad to compete.

Source: me no1 in nationals last year, no2 this year using no4 mk2

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Yeah had my shoulder done last August. Had my ole 303 out this week with some PPU 180gn factory loads. Not sure I want to shoot a comp with that against my shoulder "as issued"

So Enfields dominate the nationals because
- the shoot is a timed match so 10 rds is the best
- because it's kind of the historical default?
- because folk spend a lot of time setting them up for accuracy?
- because other options lack ladder/aperture sights?
- all the above?
- something else?

You can tell I don't know much about service match shooting. Is a smaller mag capacity going to be a serious disadvantage? If that's the case why don't they call it the "Enfield Service Match" ?

Congrats on the win!!

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Originally Posted by Ingrid 51

I have a very nice No4 Mk1 with ladder sights and near new barrel in my safe. Happy to flick that. Thought I’d get into three oh’s but attitudinally caught by the Swedish 6.5x55 of which I have several. If you feel like visiting, you’re welcome to salivate, but I’m not really interested at this stage at selling my ‘41 Husky m38, nor CG M96, both mint, all matching condition. Could quit my 1900 Oberndorf (mismatched bolt tho) or perhaps the M93 CG target rifle with Soderin diopter sights.

I feel 6.5x55 cal is the bees knees. More than happy to discuss loads etc with you.

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Ok thks for the offer. Can you PM me details just in case I get persuaded to an Enfield- not sure my shoulder can take the punishment tho :(

Happy to talk 6.5x55 loads. I've not done a lot yet so interested in others findings for sure. A visit may well be on the cards :)

you could always rebarrel a SMLE..... there is one not far from you bechambered for the mosin garant cartridge 7.62x54r think it is.... more boot and punch than the brit.
they are making new .312 barrels now too... Nathan Foster wrote a bit about it some time back... if the rules allow barrel to be replaced you could well give it a decent crack...

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

you could always rebarrel a SMLE..... there is one not far from you bechambered for the mosin garant cartridge 7.62x54r think it is.... more boot and punch than the brit.
they are making new .312 barrels now too... Nathan Foster wrote a bit about it some time back... if the rules allow barrel to be replaced you could well give it a decent crack...

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If it has to be as issued I doubt changing the calibre would wash

as issued...hmmmm new 303brit barrel perhaps??? check them rules. one of the SMLEs that came right at the end and were chambered in .308 would be a fine thing to find...

Horses for courses- study the rules, they vary widely for most clubs who run casual/fun service shoots. My ex club allowed in the end sported rifles as long as they didnt have aftermarket stocks, sights etc. That immediately bought a lot more shooters out to play. No disadvantage to the more serious shooters who had set up their full wood rifles properly. Ammo rules were also relaxed to allow for reloads as milsurp ammo was getting much harder to get. A top shooter ran no4 with 123gr pulled 7.62x39 pils in lighter loads. I hammered away with 174 gr hornady in full house loads- 2-1/4" groups from prone at 100. Was some really accurate swedes there but I won quite a few shoots, the key was fitness and flexibility to adopt steady positional shooting, eyesight (get some good glasses sorted) and the big one- practice! In casual and competition shoots it was the guys that actually practiced shooting standing and kneeling on range days that always did well. Get a no4, suss the sights, find a load that is economical for practice, come up trumps!

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Originally Posted by 00buck

Horses for courses- study the rules, they vary widely for most clubs who run casual/fun service shoots. My ex club allowed in the end sported rifles as long as they didnt have aftermarket stocks, sights etc. That immediately bought a lot more shooters out to play. No disadvantage to the more serious shooters who had set up their full wood rifles properly. Ammo rules were also relaxed to allow for reloads as milsurp ammo was getting much harder to get. A top shooter ran no4 with 123gr pulled 7.62x39 pils in lighter loads. I hammered away with 174 gr hornady in full house loads- 2-1/4" groups from prone at 100. Was some really accurate swedes there but I won quite a few shoots, the key was fitness and flexibility to adopt steady positional shooting, eyesight (get some good glasses sorted) and the big one- practice! In casual and competition shoots it was the guys that actually practiced shooting standing and kneeling on range days that always did well. Get a no4, suss the sights, find a load that is economical for practice, come up trumps!

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Ok thanks for the advice. I suspect any decent rifle will be able to shoot better than me. I would certainly be keen to shoot my own reloads so if there is flexibility there then I'll be happy. Have downloaded the rules this morning.

Finally I am likely not a national level competitor, just local Club. So yeah, probably a bit more relaxed.

Go to nzsra.com, click on service match code and then download service match code and this will give you the rule book and info on matchs run under NZSRA regulations.

To be fair a 10 round mag while nice to have isn't essential for most matchs. You can get along with using strippers clips.

A lot depends on how well you shoot Iron sights so pick a rifle that has sights you can use, Most tend to go for a rifle that has a rear aperture sight (eg P14, No4, M1903A3) and a longer sight radius. Others to consider are the Swedish Mausers and Swiss K31 if you can handle the sights.

I have a "Fat boy" P14 with the original 303 barrel and now fitted with 308....think it might have peep sights somewhere.

So is anyone on the forum shooting other than 303 for Service Rifle and want to weigh in?

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Originally Posted by Longranger

I have a "Fat boy" P14 with the original 303 barrel and now fitted with 308....think it might have peep sights somewhere.

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Not sure what a "Fat Boy " is unless you mean still fully wooded?

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Yeah had my shoulder done last August. Had my ole 303 out this week with some PPU 180gn factory loads. Not sure I want to shoot a comp with that against my shoulder "as issued"

So Enfields dominate the nationals because
- the shoot is a timed match so 10 rds is the best
- because it's kind of the historical default?
- because folk spend a lot of time setting them up for accuracy?
- because other options lack ladder/aperture sights?
- all the above?
- something else?

You can tell I don't know much about service match shooting. Is a smaller mag capacity going to be a serious disadvantage? If that's the case why don't they call it the "Enfield Service Match" ?

Congrats on the win!!

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Cheers! Service rifle rules let you use a shoulder pad like from past or Caldwell. I can't do a 2 day comp without using one. That brass butt plate really leaves a mark.

10 round mag is an advantage, although since the law changes 5 round mags get a chance to reload. So you might have 5 exposures on a target where you need to fire 2 rounds. What happens is a longer break after the second exposure (2 rounds fired) so 5 round rifles can reload.

Enfields are very available.

Rear sight design on enfields is an advantage

Enfield action is very fast, an advantage in the timed matches, and you don't have to take your face away from the stock like you do with the Swiss k31s when cycling the action.

But, adjusting windage on enfields is a pain, and be aware of rim lock.

You can't modify the rifles so it's trade offs in design.

The Surplus Steel service rifle match held in North Taranaki in January is going to be epic. (https://boltactionmedianzco.com/ss2023)

Rules for that event:
"Any bolt action military issue rifle in original “as issued” condition is allowed in its original service calibers only such as 303, 8mm , 6.5x55 and 7.5x55..."
"Infantry class rifles are to be as issued bolt actions for infantry use with original iron sights and no modifications to stocks other changes that would have got you put on latrine duty during the war. So that means no post war target shooting sights, specialty slings or bipods. If it didn’t come with it for infantry use then you can’t use it."

I should be shooting a No.4 at that match.

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Not sure what a "Fat Boy " is unless you mean still fully wooded?

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Yes it is fully wooded but has a fat bulge just forward and around the magazine well

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Originally Posted by Longranger

Yes it is fully wooded but has a fat bulge just forward and around the magazine well

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Did I read somewhere that some late P14s were issued in 308? If not, per @Gillie post above, it would not qualify as its not the original calibre.

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Did I read somewhere that some late P14s were issued in 308? If not, per @Gillie post above, it would not qualify as its not the original calibre.

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I doubt it, certainly not in the British or Commonwealth armies.
The P14 production history was very short, just around the 1st World War.
You may be thinking of its cousin the M17 in 30-06 which the Yanks copied the P14 to produce for use in WW1.

However the action has been used due to its great strength (well, generally Winchester ones) for custom builds in some pretty powerful magnums.

But, my first fullbore rifle at the change from 303 to 7.62 was a rebarreled P14 (Winchester) using an Omark blank.
That one I converted to cock on opening and fitted a Dayton Traister trigger. It shot very well.

I still have another P14, long unused, reballered with a Schultz and Larsen barrel blank in 7.62 for range use.
It has had a plate tig welded on the underside of the action so is only single shot. It has a NZ made match trigger fitted.

yes I shoot a 2A and a 2A1 in 7.62 one of which is really accurate. To be honest you cant go past a good no4 if starting out
My favorite is my 57 FTRd lithgow but I struggle on bright days now with the SMLEs sights.

Ok so I'm feeling persuaded on the No4..so about sights. Ladder or Target?

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Ok so I'm feeling persuaded on the No4..so about sights. Ladder or Target?

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Target sights will knock you out of service class.

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Originally Posted by NZShoota

Target sights will knock you out of service class.

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Thks!

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Thks!

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You need to get one with the “singer sight” adjustable for elevation. Windage can be adjusted using the front blade.

So if a rifle has been rebarrelled and is missing its original bayonet lug, will that disqualify it from Service Match?

What about mismatched wood?

And if it has been rebarreled what are the chances the stock has been setup properly as per issue?

So much to consider!

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Originally Posted by Jhon

So if a rifle has been rebarrelled and is missing its original bayonet lug, will that disqualify it from Service Match?

What about mismatched wood?

And if it has been rebarreled what are the chances the stock has been setup properly as per issue?


So much to consider!

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It should be ok as some of the criterion barrels had no lugs. No big deal unless you plan to fit a pig sticker to it

They're called Lee-Enfields for fucks sake. Or just call it a .303. You're better than this.
(But never just an ""Ënfield"" like an ignorant American on Youtube. An Enfield is a muzzleloading percussion rifle.)

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Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

They're called Lee-Enfields for fucks sake. Or just call it a .303. You're better than this.
(But never just an ""Ënfield"" like an ignorant American on Youtube. An Enfield is a muzzleloading percussion rifle.)

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I think you will find it's actually a motorbike :thumbsup::pacman:

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Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

They're called Lee-Enfields for fucks sake. Or just call it a .303. You're better than this.
(But never just an ""Ënfield"" like an ignorant American on Youtube. An Enfield is a muzzleloading percussion rifle.)

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Umm...I think I missed your point...

nah thats a Royal Enfield.....fella at bible study has one.

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Originally Posted by omark

It should be ok as some of the criterion barrels had no lugs. No big deal unless you plan to fit a pig sticker to it

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Yes, got the good oil from the CNI Club. No advantage, no foul.

Update. So thks again for all the input. In the end I decided not to go down the Lee-Enfield ( there ya go @JohnDuxbury ) path despite getting a very good offer of a Mark IV No1 from a forum member. I expect my shoulder is at its best now as it will ever be so the milder recoil of a 6.5x55 Swede will take me further down thru the years. The sights may be less than the Mark IV but I suspect the inherent accuracy of the Swede will compensate for that to some degree.

That being said, a beautiful Husqvarna M38 is on its way to me. All I need now are some stripper clips. And lots of target projectiles...

I’ll have a look John. May be able to help with stripper clips. Interested in seeing the m38!

@Jhon I just got a M38 for the exact same reason, got some nosler RDF pills to try through it, just doin a load development now.

I was about to say, you can do a lot worse than going for 6.5x55 if you are already in that caliber. I'd avoid 7mm and 8mm and the pomgolian 3-0 while a lovely thing is just getting a bit hard to feed now. I would have loved a honestly issued 5.56mm bolt actioned service rifle, that would be the ducks nuts. Cheap, inoffensive to ears and shoulders and shoot all damn day. Why oh why didn't the yanks convert a bolt gun haha...

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Originally Posted by Hbwanderer

@Jhon I just got a M38 for the exact same reason, got some nosler RDF pills to try through it, just doin a load development now.

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Pity you're in Southland! But with @Ingrid and a few others we could share a few notes

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Pity you're in Southland! But with @Ingrid and a few others we could share a few notes

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also have some 140grn sst i want to try ,idealy id like to get some round nose but cant find none. will post my results as soon as i have some

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Originally Posted by Hbwanderer

also have some 140grn sst i want to try ,idealy id like to get some round nose but cant find none. will post my results as soon as i have some

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I'm keen to try some cast as well, yes I know, not the greatest calibre, or rifle considering the twist rate. Yes I've been doing my homework. Unfortunately Delta Mike is out of HRBC 6.5MM 140GN SPEER POINT, a gas checked (I believe) Powder Coated hardcast target projectile which were last offered at $99 per 500. Cast up to around 1400fps is giving good results to those who persist, it appears, which is usefully in the ballpark for Saturday plinking at the range. ot great. Fiddling may get it nearer 2000fps but not likely with any great accuracy. Well, there are some contrary claims out there but my expectations are n I probably won't take the M38 out in the field, not what I bought it for and I have better rifles in more suitable calibres /twists for serious cast hunting experiences.