The next flop?

https://youtu.be/_opwpYLgXqI?si=ig_LLBoiDaOMd_Ga

Im sure most of you have probably heard about this new one coming out to compete with the 7mm PRC

I haven’t as I don’t follow new developments for the most part
And my 7Rm does just fine

But this one popped up on my feed this morning and being the typical kiwi hunter who is addicted to short barrel suppressed hunting rifles

The numbers look absolutely ridiculous from a 16” barrel

But the thing is will it take off
The 7mmprc is for the most part coming up below advertised expectation

If this thing actually does what it says on the label (which im sceptical) maybe just maybe it could become very popular in nz

based on that why would anyone buy a 7mm PRC 10 inch shorter barrel same velocity, = lighter more compact rifles = win

I guess it will be for new rifles only made for the 80000psi.
ie: no rebarrelling/chambering your old remmy?

Pretty much. Seekins have just released a new rifle with a 3 lug bolt and "exotic materials" on the bolt head so that it can handle hot rounds like 277 Fury. I don't think there's any way you're putting these into a plain steel 2 lug Tikka, Remmy, Howa.

Oh well. It's not like 7 PRC isn't already a sufficiently big sledgehammer.

Will be awesome if it does as advertised which I believe it will,Federal is well aware of hornadys BS with the 7 prc and all prc factory loadings actually so they should come to the party on this or it will just flop.I imagine the factory ammo will be extremely expensive down in our neck of the woods though.

Waitingcfor all those to wail on about barrel life :D

Ya gotta remember the gun industry is a "fashion industry" cause theres no money in it if I continue to head out with my 100 year old Mauser/Lee Enfield etc . . . .

Barrel life at those pressures will be ugly. Just get thru load dev & it will be time for anew bbl.

Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_opwpYLgXqI

They have partnered with Savage for rifles

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Originally Posted by chainsaw

Barrel life at those pressures will be ugly. Just get thru load dev & it will be time for anew bbl.

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I don't know much about firearms in the scheme of things but virtually much powder as a .270 but more pressure. Might be a bit of a trade off.
One of the other articles suggest 30% less barrel life than the 7mm rem mag. So if that was the case 1500 plus rounds is still not bad. Last most hunters a fair old while for sure!

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Originally Posted by chainsaw

Barrel life at those pressures will be ugly. Just get thru load dev & it will be time for anew bbl.

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umm not really

https://youtu.be/G-cChdulaKY?si=Oj1my-MK2sdzuFrQ&t=459

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack

They have partnered with Savage for rifles

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That sounds like the kiss of death

Hard to shake off the budget Savage image

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack

They have partnered with Savage for rifles

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As a budget option
Sounds like they have also got some very high end “factory custom” makers on board aswell

The numbers that backfire was getting is impressive all most
Amost 200fps more than my 7RM out of a 4” shorter barrel than my rem mag

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

That sounds like the kiss of death

Hard to shake off the budget Savage image

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I read Savage are only one of several Federal have lined up for the caliber.

(whoops, as above)

What's the ammo going to cost in NZ ?

Can you get dies and suitable powder to equal factory ballistics ?

So who's crunched the numbers on the speed, powder type required, burn rate and projection on realistic barrel life ?

All the reasonable known barrel life projection data is based on 60k psi or thereabouts
It might be safe to assume there is an exponential increased decay at 80k psi

The case design could be an innovation in the market if applied to cartridges more useful than a 7mm magnum style. Lots of questions to be answered about practical use. Could be interesting in concept.

From the articles I've seen barrel life will be similar to a 280 and it appears normal actions will be just fine.
The case material is what allows for the pressure.

May not be for the reloaders, at least not in the short term.

Look at the Spomer YT item on it

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Originally Posted by Pommy

Pretty much. Seekins have just released a new rifle with a 3 lug bolt and "exotic materials" on the bolt head so that it can handle hot rounds like 277 Fury. I don't think there's any way you're putting these into a plain steel 2 lug Tikka, Remmy, Howa.

Oh well. It's not like 7 PRC isn't already a sufficiently big sledgehammer.

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Local hunter has 6.5 PRC which he only brings out in the roar for big wet stags. Reckons it has too much boogie for the rest of the year which he hunts with 6.5CM. Has fancy Swaro glass on top of BOTH.

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

What's the ammo going to cost in NZ ?

Can you get dies and suitable powder to equal factory ballistics ?

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I spend an easy 5000$ plus into my hunting each year, gas,travel, upgrading gear etc ( im only on disability(23,000per year) and 150$ pw part-time work) yeah so when i buy ammo at 110$ for 20 that lasts me 2 sight in sessions and 10 animals minimum on the ground it mean NOTHING at all its the absolute minimum cost when everything is taken into account gas, vehicle costs, food, fuel, gas cannisters, ice, missed income from time off from paying work its a shitload more then the 1 or 2 bullets fired at 5$ each to secure the meat, trophy - animals taken so even if they are 15$ a shot who gives a shit still the cheapest part of the equation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gimp

The case design could be an innovation in the market if applied to cartridges more useful than a 7mm magnum style. Lots of questions to be answered about practical use. Could be interesting in concept.

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Yep imagine if we could fill a 7.62x39 base (6.5 Grendel,6 arc) case up with fast pistol powder to sky rocket the pressures and get a 130-140gn doing 6.5 creedmoor velocities or better

Could make for some mighty compact rifles (howa mini size action for example )that will match much bigger rigs that use the older technology
The case technology is certainly very interesting
Watch this space

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pommy

Pretty much. Seekins have just released a new rifle with a 3 lug bolt and "exotic materials" on the bolt head so that it can handle hot rounds like 277 Fury. I don't think there's any way you're putting these into a plain steel 2 lug Tikka, Remmy, Howa.

Oh well. It's not like 7 PRC isn't already a sufficiently big sledgehammer.

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Any PRC, WSM, or SAUM case has more bolt thrust at 65kPSI than this new cartridge at 80kPSI. Actually a bit less. A lot 2 lug Tikka in these chamberings.

Will be interesting if cases are reloadable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gimp

The case design could be an innovation in the market if applied to cartridges more useful than a 7mm magnum style. Lots of questions to be answered about practical use. Could be interesting in concept.

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steel cased 223 3000fps with a 75 in a stubby barrel :ORLY:

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Originally Posted by Stocky

steel cased 223 3000fps with a 75 in a stubby barrel :ORLY:

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You can do that with a 22" barrel now. So not a huge gain. My 74 Targex are 2970 fps from a 20". Or are you thinking 3k from a 16" barrel?

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Originally Posted by Carbine

I spend an easy 5000$ plus into my hunting each year, gas,travel, upgrading gear etc ( im only on disability(23,000per year) and 150$ pw part-time work) yeah so when i buy ammo at 110$ for 20 that lasts me 2 sight in sessions and 10 animals minimum on the ground it mean NOTHING at all its the absolute minimum cost when everything is taken into account gas, vehicle costs, food, fuel, gas cannisters, ice, missed income from time off from paying work its a shitload more then the 1 or 2 bullets fired at 5$ each to secure the meat, trophy - animals taken so even if they are 15$ a shot who gives a shit still the cheapest part of the equation

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In fairness to play devils advocate, if people dont shoot a bunch to the point where ammo costs dont matter do they have any business wanting calibers that realistically only benefit them beyond the range they practiced and are competent too? ie what improvement does this give most guys that they could utilize vs say a 7mm08.

A big boomer does not make one a marksman if fact the opposite may be true.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

You can do that with a 22" barrel now. So not a huge gain. My 74 Targex are 2970 fps from a 20". Or are you thinking 3k from a 16" barrel?

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Your 74s might be doing 3k from 13 or 14 at 80000psi!

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Originally Posted by Tahr

You can do that with a 22" barrel now. So not a huge gain. My 74 Targex are 2970 fps from a 20". Or are you thinking 3k from a 16" barrel?

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Yuck keep your extra inchs to yourself!

I do 2850 in an 18" now its plenty but a little more is always nice or the same but shorter.

GRT suggests 80kpsi would give 2950ish in a 16" with my same powder and bullet. Thats what I mean as well as higher pressure helps a more complete burn with slower powders in short barrels (according to GRT and QL) if you think it matters.

It also suggests that 2970 in a 20 is already in the 65-70kpsi realm. In most bolt actions pressure signs are often not seen until 70-80kpsi often higher

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Originally Posted by Stocky

Any PRC, WSM, or SAUM case has more bolt thrust at 65kPSI than this new cartridge at 80kPSI. Actually a bit less. A lot 2 lug Tikka in these chamberings.

Will be interesting if cases are reloadable.

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Fair one. Though speaking with a gunsmith, the number of Tikkas with setback on those lugs from hot reloads suggests that they aren't as reassuringly over-engineered for those cartridges as you'd like. I wonder if the Savage rifles will be ordinary Axis II's, 110's, or if they'll be something new.

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Originally Posted by Stocky

In fairness to play devils advocate, if people dont shoot a bunch to the point where ammo costs dont matter do they have any business wanting calibers that realistically only benefit them beyond the range they practiced and are competent too? ie what improvement does this give most guys that they could utilize vs say a 7mm08.

A big boomer does not make one a marksman if fact the opposite may be true.

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i get that to a point but add up what you spend on everything related to actually pulling the trigger its still fuckall in the whole equation. And realistically im on under 30k a year in income and spend at least 5k so that's about 20+% of all money earned so if your on 120k a year do you spend 20 - 30K plus on hunting? Ive got a long range setup for high country work and it would only use 20 rounds a year as i've got private land access to shoot deer on so only use my 300 win mag to shoot what's not on the farm chammie, tahr and big stags hopefully. if you look at this as say recently the 7mm PRC craze 2-6000 dollars rifles getting purchased then scopes suppressors etc not much change from 6000-10,000 rifle setups so it will be the same cost at getting a new 7mmBackCountry so who cares if ammo is 200$ for 20 rounds when you've spent so much on your setup? are you going to shoot say 200 rounds a year at 2000$ and then complain about ammo cost when if it was say a 308 at 100$ for 20 thats a 1/2 the price - sort of like buying a high end car and moaning about the cost of 100 octane

and as far as should you be buying to shoot further its what 80+% of all us hunting have done in the past as you need'ish a magnum to shoot further to get the wapati across the valley or the Tahr across the ridge, learn to shoot longer range then your 308 or latte drinking 7mm08 can do with enough power to put em down. If i didn't have a 300 win mag i wouldn't shoot the backcountry with my 18" 308 past 400m because thats what the boomers are for and you only get experience by doing it and using it and to get to a point where i could use the 308 to say 700m reliably would take to much time and trips away and costs so i just use the magnum to my ability and slowly stretch it out further and further as i shoot it more often and know from using it in the scenarios what it can and cant do. And we all know of youtube channels in nz that use magnums ands non magnums to shoot long range and promote themselves but i know from people who know them how many animals they wound and loose from not using a suitable enough caliber for the range they shoot and trademe is filled with for sale long range setups that would do the job if the shooter was capable of using at distance

I remember reading somewhere that 80 percent of shooters use 20 percent of a cartridges potential. Which reminds me of the old saying beware of the man with one gun, he knows how to use it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stocky

In fairness to play devils advocate, if people dont shoot a bunch to the point where ammo costs dont matter do they have any business wanting calibers that realistically only benefit them beyond the range they practiced and are competent too? ie what improvement does this give most guys that they could utilize vs say a 7mm08.

A big boomer does not make one a marksman if fact the opposite may be true.

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Having been called an old Fudd on occasions, I see a realistic benefit from this development for what I look for in a cartridge. At the distances I can realistically shoot too and stick within, which is around 400 meters. I can pass up the opportunity of using the high BC heavies in a new cartridge like this, and go for the 155gr load. Or if it's reloadable, a 140gr load even better. No need for any special scope turrets or reticle, just a bog standard cross, and no need to hold over or ballistics chart out to 400m

To summarise, the improvement for me, would be simplicity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stocky

In fairness to play devils advocate, if people dont shoot a bunch to the point where ammo costs dont matter do they have any business wanting calibers that realistically only benefit them beyond the range they practiced and are competent too? ie what improvement does this give most guys that they could utilize vs say a 7mm08.

A big boomer does not make one a marksman if fact the opposite may be true.

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Men* buy guns for many more reasons than shooting

Conspicuous consumption
Mood affiliation
Keeping up with the Jones
Curiosity
Wanting to prove something/somebody wrong

I ain't saying it's right but it's a thing


*Women aren't generally as stupid as men

No free lunch in physics.

All steel-alloy case vs. bi-metal like the SIG FURY.

That will be fun to reload (not!)

Also, you can already get 'extra' performance from a standard case, but at what risk/cost?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXkmcpk7Brc

Federal own Alliant so probably cut Re26 off to Hornady (7PRC) knowing this was coming out, mines faster than yours! No way I’d pull the trigger on a savage at 80kpsi! :D I’d want a high quality action

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Originally Posted by outdoorlad

Federal own Alliant so probably cut Re26 off to Hornady (7PRC) knowing this was coming out, mines faster than yours! No way I’d pull the trigger on a savage at 80kpsi! :D I’d want a high quality action

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The Savage 110 is actually a strong action, only issue is they are made in the cheap.

Have seen people running a Savage at stupid pressure to the point they wore out the primary extraction cam... :redbullsmiley:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by outdoorlad

Federal own Alliant so probably cut Re26 off to Hornady (7PRC) knowing this was coming out, mines faster than yours! No way I’d pull the trigger on a savage at 80kpsi! :D I’d want a high quality action

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My layperson understanding from what is being said in the blurbs is that the 80k pressure is somehow absorbed/taken up by the steel casing and standard action strength is ok.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

My layperson understanding from what is being said in the blurbs is that the 80k pressure is somehow absorbed/taken up by the steel casing and standard action strength is ok.

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Yeah again lay person understanding, so willing to be corrected. As I understand it, the weak link in the action is the bolt lugs and face. The still case 'holds' onto the chamber better and so less force is put on those weak areas.?

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Originally Posted by whanahuia

Yeah again lay person understanding, so willing to be corrected. As I understand it, the weak link in the action is the bolt lugs and face. The still case 'holds' onto the chamber better and so less force is put on those weak areas.?

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I would guess "holds on to the chamber better " and due to less stretch than brass there would be less or no more bolt thrust.

Modern steel ( and some old steel ) can easily contain chamber pressure in the barrel shank and receiver ring.
It's usually backwards pressure that is harder to contain

What I find interesting about this is that the self contained cartridge really hasn't changed a lot in well over 100 years.
A lot of the incremental improvements have come from a gradual increase in chamber pressure as the firearms industry has been able to improve designs and materials to contain that pressure.

This new 7mm case is just another step along that continuum.