Thread: Night vision vs hunting torch update.

Well things seem to have gone a little quiet here on this subject which used to be one of the most commented on. Phil and his input on this is sorely missed, at least by me. A lot of really good prior post content was also lost when the Admin in their supreme wisdom deleted it due to some misguided idea that there was some sort of potentially damaging content, damaging to who or what we will probably never know. Phil also appears to have been collateral damage and regretfully is no longer on this forum.
Anyway I have decided to post this update on my findings so far. It has been a long time coming because since August I have not been able to get to my hunting block due to Covid restrictions. However we finally got there just before Christmas. I have been fizzing to try out a new piece of gear, The Convoy L21B red torch, I also needed to make a final decision what to do about my PARD 007 Clip on.
So the block we hunt has quite a good population of Fallow deer, it is reasonably open farmland which goes into bush gullies and regenerating scrub at the back. So a high percentage of our shots are at mid to longer ranges. Over the last year or so, prior to the most recent lockdown I have played with the Pard 007, a white bean Maxtoch torch, the Convoy C8 red torch and now the L21B red torch. I have shot animals with all these choices.
This time around I started off with the Pard 007. I use this on a Tikka T3x with a Swarovski 3.5-18 x 44. I also add an external IR laser iluminator. This gives much better clarity even ad mid ranges. The first deer I shot was with this setup, a good Fallow buck at about 150m. I do find the Pard a little fiddly to use at night, I guess because the button layout on the back is not second nature to me. At one point while getting set up to shoot I wondered why the Buck and the 3 other animals with him were all looking in my direction. Oooops I had managed to press the button which activated the little red laser light. So after quickly turning that off the deer were still there and I managed to line up on and shoot a really decent white stag.
I then pulled the 007 off and put the L21B red torch on. The first animal I shot with this setup was a Fallow spiker at only about 40m. Yes when I illuminated the spiker he was definitely aware that something was going on, however at those ranges the time taken to first light up the animal and then shoot would be less than 5 seconds. The next spiker was at about 100m, when I turned on the torch he just stood and looked at me, it took about 20 seconds to get the shot off due to a pretty uncomfortable shooting position. This spiker did not seem overly upset about being lit up.
Later on that night I got a good Boar, He was lit up and shot at about 170m. When I put the red torch on him he stopped digging in the ground and lifted his head but did not seem overly alarmed. Resolution at that range was good enough to stick a 129 grain pill below his ear. I had a good rest over a large fallen tree.
I should also point out that I use a Thermal monocular for finding animals. This is a game changer I would never go without this piece gear, nothing else comes close. Currently I am preferring the red torch vs the night vision because of the simplicity of this system. I am yet to loose an animal because it has run off after being lit up. Although I would also say that the PARD 007 just on dusk is friggin awesome. Without the IR iluminator it can be almost dark but seems like daylight through the PARD.
The L21B torch compared to the Convoy C8 red torch. Well the L21B has a tighter beam and a much longer range. I was lighting up a hillside 400m away to a point where any animal on that hillside would be shootable. However I am a little more conservative at night. I need a good positive ID on my target. With this in mind I was limiting my shots taken with the C8 Convoy to about 230m and now with the new L21B that would be about 300m.
Another interesting point worth noting, and something which we learned through making the mistake. with either system, night vision/IR iluminator or hunting torch you need to be setup in such a way as to avoid blowback of light reflection from the ground or grass/scrub immediately in from of you. So for example it can be difficult to setup prone because the torch/IR will reflect back light from the grass in front of you, to point that the scope will completely white out with the glare. The same thing when you have trees close in front of you. This does make some longer range shots quite challenging.
Anyway you will now see I have put the PADR 007 and the IR iluminator in the for sale section. Maybe I will regret this but for now I had to make a choice and I am going with the red torch.
Hopefully this post will rejuvenate discussion on this most interesting subject, it would be great to get some posts on other peoples first hand experiences.

Originally Posted by zeropak

Well things seem to have gone a little quiet here on this subject which used to be one of the most commented on. Phil and his input on this is sorely missed, at least by me. A lot of really good prior post content was also lost when the Admin in their supreme wisdom deleted it due to some misguided idea that there was some sort of potentially damaging content, damaging to who or what we will probably never know. Phil also appears to have been collateral damage and regretfully is no longer on this forum.
Anyway I have decided to post this update on my findings so far. It has been a long time coming because since August I have not been able to get to my hunting block due to Covid restrictions. However we finally got there just before Christmas. I have been fizzing to try out a new piece of gear, The Convoy L21B red torch, I also needed to make a final decision what to do about my PARD 007 Clip on.
So the block we hunt has quite a good population of Fallow deer, it is reasonably open farmland which goes into bush gullies and regenerating scrub at the back. So a high percentage of our shots are at mid to longer ranges. Over the last year or so, prior to the most recent lockdown I have played with the Pard 007, a white bean Maxtoch torch, the Convoy C8 red torch and now the L21B red torch. I have shot animals with all these choices.
This time around I started off with the Pard 007. I use this on a Tikka T3x with a Swarovski 3.5-18 x 44. I also add an external IR laser iluminator. This gives much better clarity even ad mid ranges. The first deer I shot was with this setup, a good Fallow buck at about 150m. I do find the Pard a little fiddly to use at night, I guess because the button layout on the back is not second nature to me. At one point while getting set up to shoot I wondered why the Buck and the 3 other animals with him were all looking in my direction. Oooops I had managed to press the button which activated the little red laser light. So after quickly turning that off the deer were still there and I managed to line up on and shoot a really decent white stag.
I then pulled the 007 off and put the L21B red torch on. The first animal I shot with this setup was a Fallow spiker at only about 40m. Yes when I illuminated the spiker he was definitely aware that something was going on, however at those ranges the time taken to first light up the animal and then shoot would be less than 5 seconds. The next spiker was at about 100m, when I turned on the torch he just stood and looked at me, it took about 20 seconds to get the shot off due to a pretty uncomfortable shooting position. This spiker did not seem overly upset about being lit up.
Later on that night I got a good Boar, He was lit up and shot at about 170m. When I put the red torch on him he stopped digging in the ground and lifted his head but did not seem overly alarmed. Resolution at that range was good enough to stick a 129 grain pill below his ear. I had a good rest over a large fallen tree.
I should also point out that I use a Thermal monocular for finding animals. This is a game changer I would never go without this piece gear, nothing else comes close. Currently I am preferring the red torch vs the night vision because of the simplicity of this system. I am yet to loose an animal because it has run off after being lit up. Although I would also say that the PARD 007 just on dusk is friggin awesome. Without the IR iluminator it can be almost dark but seems like daylight through the PARD.
The L21B torch compared to the Convoy C8 red torch. Well the L21B has a tighter beam and a much longer range. I was lighting up a hillside 400m away to a point where any animal on that hillside would be shootable. However I am a little more conservative at night. I need a good positive ID on my target. With this in mind I was limiting my shots taken with the C8 Convoy to about 230m and now with the new L21B that would be about 300m.
Another interesting point worth noting, and something which we learned through making the mistake. with either system, night vision/IR iluminator or hunting torch you need to be setup in such a way as to avoid blowback of light reflection from the ground or grass/scrub immediately in from of you. So for example it can be difficult to setup prone because the torch/IR will reflect back light from the grass in front of you, to point that the scope will completely white out with the glare. The same thing when you have trees close in front of you. This does make some longer range shots quite challenging.
Anyway you will now see I have put the PADR 007 and the IR iluminator in the for sale section. Maybe I will regret this but for now I had to make a choice and I am going with the red torch.
Hopefully this post will rejuvenate discussion on this most interesting subject, it would be great to get some posts on other peoples first hand experiences.

HAVE PMd YOU

Not the only one who misses Phil H input on night vision.

Originally Posted by Maca49

HAVE PMd YOU

Cheers, got it and sent reply

From a previous posting of mine regarding PARD 008's and Sytong HT-60:

I have two PARD's, one on a .17HMR (Gen1) for rabbits and one on a Creedmore (Gen2 with OLED screen) for deer on private land. They are excellent.

Advantages:
1/2 the weight of the Pulsar's
While they look 'different' they actually have good ergonomics once mounted
Battery life is excellent, and easy to replace because its a standard 18650 - no special battery.
I can get 4-6 hours out of a single battery hunting rabbits with the laser illuminator on 100% output, but turning the screen (and illuminator) off between shots while looking for the next candidate with the thermal bino's.
'Instant on' from cold or screen off mode is very quick. From the screen off mode it is instant. This means you can single push the power button to shut the screen off, then push it once and it will instantly turn on.
You can program the unit to start up from cold in a bunch of different modes - colour/black and white, illuminator on/illuminator off, illuminator power setting, magnification, etc. This makes it super easy to have it preset for opportunity shooting - oh look, a deer ..... hit power button and its good to go.
The laser illuminator (yes, it is a laser, not a 'torch') is switched on/off with the screen to conserve battery. This means you don't have to be turning it on/off separately.
The laser illuminator has plenty of boogie for any hunting out 100-150m. Beyond that, I wouldn't feel safe squeezing the trigger.

Disadvantages:
I find the magnification a bit high. Using thermal bino's set to 2.5x for scanning rabbits, then having to change over to 6x IR takes an extra couple of seconds to adjust to. 3-4 power would be ideal.
An 'issue' for all IR units, is that the objective lens needs to be focused on a regular basis depending on hunting distances. This is not the easiest thing to do if you are trying to hold the rifle up unsupported while using your non trigger hand to adjust the focus. Shooting off a bi-pod or tripod is no issue.
The Gen2 model with the OLED screen is a sales pitch only, and I actually prefer the non-OLED units as there is less (no) fishbowl effect. I would happily swap out an as new Gen1 for my Gen2 if anyone wants to swap??
IR wash out is an issue if you have ANY reflective objects in close proximity to your rifle eg, long grass, vehicle, ground contour, tree, etc. This also applies to any haze in the air eg smoke or fog. Not an issue for thermal.
They are not at their best in the middle of the day under very bright sunlight (high contrast), but sill perfectly usable. They are excellent in the dying light when normal optics has long gone, or in low light looking into shadow areas.


I also have a Sytong HT-60 3x-8x for the lower magnification mounted on a dedicated .22LR shooting CCI Quite segmented ammo for close range instead of buying a PCP.

My thoughts on the Sytong:
There really isn't anything in it when comparing the Sytong and the PARD. On my units, sitting side by side, I would rank them Gen 1 PARD, Gen 2 PARD, then Sytong in terms of image quality. Between the Gen 2 PARD and the Sytong you really are splitting hairs on visual quality. If you owned one or the other, you wouldn't be wanting to sell the one you have to buy the other for image improvement, so don't make your purchase decision based on that. I still rate the Gen 1 PARD highest as it has the non-OLED screen.
The lower magnification of the 3x-8x is definitely an advantage at .22LR and PCP ranges. Big, big, plus. But, if you are shooting a .17HMR and hunting rabbits out beyond 100m, that is where the higher magnification (native) comes into play. Don't be fooled by the zoom - it is not an optical zoom, its digital, and the picture quality degrades very quickly. You need to work out if you want 3x, or 6x and buy the unit accordingly, or get a clip on, for which I have zero experience with.
If you are looking to hunt larger game (pigs and deer), I would favour the lower magnification Sytong in 3x.
The one small problem I have run into with the Sytong, on my CZ .22, is that the side mounted IR illuminator (compared to the top mounted illuminator on the PARD) seems to bounce spent cases back into the action when cycling the bolt. I have to rotate the rifle as I cycle the bolt to ensure I don't get a jam. Different bolt cycle speeds makes no difference - they bounce back every time. If this was on a rifle that I was using a bi-pod with, I would need to go for a higher mount setup. I currently run mine as low as I can, with only just enough height for the bolt to clear the bottom of the optic.

Hunting recommendations:
Anyone who has used thermal/IR for any reasonable duration of hunting will tell you that trying to use a rifle mounted thermal/IR for scanning is extremely tiresome. The very best solution is a thermal hand held and either a thermal or IR rifle scope, so keep that in mind when you are doing your budget - you will ultimately want a handheld.
Get a red led headlamp for safely walking around in the dark to get from shooting spot to shooting spot without spooking your game. I use a Aliexpress one that takes 18650 batteries and it works a treat.
I find with rabbits, where I shoot, seem to feel safe when I have the red torch on up to about 90m. Closer than that and they will start to move off, For that reason, I use the .17HMR.
If you are hunting by walking around, I strongly recommend a standing height shooting tripod. I use a Primus trigger stick https://www.primos.com/shooting-stic.../PO-65815.html Yes, they are expensive, but they are light and instantly adjustable for the ground conditions and the rifle height required. If you are not using a handled for spotting, factor one of these into the cost of an IR scope because I can guarantee you will end up getting one.

Now you have a problem - you have to carry a rifle, a tripod, and a handheld, and they are all expensive pieces of kit that you don't what to get banged around.
My solution and current setup is as follows:
Set your rifle up with a sling that allows "in the front, barrel down carry", like the good old days when you used to own AR's. This make it super easy to have your rifle slung across your front, your trigger stick tripod in your weak hand, and your thermal handheld in your strong hand.
With the front mount sling, it is super easy to stand the tripod up and place the rifle on the yoke without having to adjust your sling length.
For handheld thermal storage while shooting, I have one of my old (AR) mag dump pouches mounted on my belt on my strong hand side with a piece of sleeping mat foam cut to fit the bottom of the pouch to keep it open like a bucket. Super easy to flip the lens cap closed and drop it into the mag pouch (bucket) rather than trying to fiddle it into or out of its case. Its protected by the foam. Having it on your belt keeps it away from your rifle which is slung across your chest ie a chest bino harness wont work.

Further to the above I would also add:

• IR NV is very susceptible to illuminator flair as stated above, including rain, cloud, fog, smoke, or any close reflective surface including grass if prone. If its raining/foggy/low cloud, grab a different gun or stay home. If the grass is long, shoot standing up, not prone, or go thermal. I've spotted rabbits with my thermal bino's but when you bring the IR up to shoot, you cannot see a thing but long grass.
• For this reason, IR is useless in bush hunting eg shooting possums. If you are chasing possums at torch light distances, IR will offer you no useful advantage.
• Thermal is only partially effected by rain, cloud, fog or smoke. Therefore be careful when pairing it with IR. Just because you can see it with your thermal handheld, doesn't mean you will see it with your IR.
• 850nm IR - I have played around trying to scare game with the 850nm illuminator on the PARD (850nm is visible as opposed to 900nm which is not). To date I have only had one hind that got titchy with me, as I was trying to reposition myself for a better shot on her and was waving the gun around, including at the ground in front of me. I have found that provided you point the gun at the animal before you turn on the illuminator, they may lift their head for a look, but usually go back to feeding without disturbance.

Using IR NV is a very effective method of open ground pest control.

Hope this helps.

Some great news for owners of Sytong HT-60 Range Finder models, there is an incoming software upgrade to add ballistics.

Originally Posted by tetawa

Not the only one who misses Phil H input on night vision.

Yes, really enjoyed Phil's posts and experiences in coming to grips with NV and various illuminators, torches etc. Bring back Phil !

@zeropak Thanks for taking the time to do the comprehensive comparison/evaluation on the subject ,l am looking at purchasing a unit & the amount of conflicting info is staggering ,with it pretty obvious other overseas posts /article are paid for gorilla marketing & agree with everything you said on the other subject . Now on to something more in your line ,have you considered doing another run down & Forum offering on your Vac sealers . I have posted a few things showing how l use ours for a multitude of Game meat related prep & end products, (one of the best Kitchen/Game Prep items we have ever brought) & always receive multiple PM's asking about them & where to get them

Now on to deleted content ,people need to check their post history in their account ,as only some appears to be delated from your history ,if there is still enough good info saved in peoples accounts ,then all that needs to happen is a new Part 2 of the post put up & people simply copy & paste what info they contributed last time ,this is a far better option than losing all that great information & first hand knowledge & takes a minute to check (I have now set up a separate file on my computer to store any info of interest after the other pub deleting years of historic NZ hunting history )

@hotbarrels always appreciate your informative info on the subject as well & meant to say in your drone pic post ,when you get time could you do a post on choosing/setting up /taking pics etc with Drones as well ,something l think a lot on here will be interested in & again something l am looking at purchasing ,as its use to on the spot ,check out the Navigability of tight spots we are trying to reach in our Jet Boats would be a game changer & l can see one sitting right alongside the Axes , Chainsaws & Winches we carry in the Jets now . TIA

A good subject Craig that a lot of hunters seem to be interested in. I've been using a Tikka 6.5 CM for the last three years with a variety of Maxtoch torches mounted on the scope in conjunction with a hand held pulsar thermal and bipod. This is what several mates use also. I've had quite a bit of success on the japs with this in tussock country. However, I've had many balls ups too when the torch lit up a clump of tussock in front of me that I didn't know was there. Instant animal gone every time. The deer normally will bolt after about three seconds with the spot on them anyway so getting all lined up before throwing the switch is crucial. Probably a result of their genetics imprinted with sixty years of being spotlighted. Tried a green beam and found it worse than white. Haven't tried a red spotlight yet. Use a red torch for walking around and it is okay if it's pointed at the ground where it normally would be pointed anyway.

Decided this year that I'd splash out and shout myself a thermal scope to use with my hand held. Currently looking at options for that. So far the Pard SA45 with rangefinder looks like getting my spondoolies.

Originally Posted by bunji

@zeropak Thanks for taking the time to do the comprehensive comparison/evaluation on the subject ,l am looking at purchasing a unit & the amount of conflicting info is staggering ,with it pretty obvious other overseas posts /article are paid for gorilla marketing & agree with everything you said on the other subject . Now on to something more in your line ,have you considered doing another run down & Forum offering on your Vac sealers . I have posted a few things showing how l use ours for a multitude of Game meat related prep & end products, (one of the best Kitchen/Game Prep items we have ever brought) & always receive multiple PM's asking about them & where to get them

Now on to deleted content ,people need to check their post history in their account ,as only some appears to be delated from your history ,if there is still enough good info saved in peoples accounts ,then all that needs to happen is a new Part 2 of the post put up & people simply copy & paste what info they contributed last time ,this is a far better option than losing all that great information & first hand knowledge & takes a minute to check (I have now set up a separate file on my computer to store any info of interest after the other pub deleting years of historic NZ hunting history )

@hotbarrels always appreciate your informative info on the subject as well & meant to say in your drone pic post ,when you get time could you do a post on choosing/setting up /taking pics etc with Drones as well ,something l think a lot on here will be interested in & again something l am looking at purchasing ,as its use to on the spot ,check out the Navigability of tight spots we are trying to reach in our Jet Boats would be a game changer & l can see one sitting right alongside the Axes , Chainsaws & Winches we carry in the Jets now . TIA

@bunji It is a bit of a tangled web getting into night vision and thermal gear for the first time. I just did the hard yards experimenting and talking to others on this forum. I have no skin in the game when it comes to all this night vision gear so please message me anytime if you are looking for first hand info, I don't claim to be an expert by any means but I have spent a bit of time in the field using this gear. Interesting what you said about post history, so I just went to my account and all that good stuff which came up in past posts, mostly instigated by Phil H have all been deleted this is all it shows in my post history, I cannot go back and view it. Thanks for your feedback about the vacuum packing. Yes I think a some sort of article and perhaps a deal for the forum is overdue. I will work it.

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

A good subject Craig that a lot of hunters seem to be interested in. I've been using a Tikka 6.5 CM for the last three years with a variety of Maxtoch torches mounted on the scope in conjunction with a hand held pulsar thermal and bipod. This is what several mates use also. I've had quite a bit of success on the japs with this in tussock country. However, I've had many balls ups too when the torch lit up a clump of tussock in front of me that I didn't know was there. Instant animal gone every time. The deer normally will bolt after about three seconds with the spot on them anyway so getting all lined up before throwing the switch is crucial. Probably a result of their genetics imprinted with sixty years of being spotlighted. Tried a green beam and found it worse than white. Haven't tried a red spotlight yet. Use a red torch for walking around and it is okay if it's pointed at the ground where it normally would be pointed anyway.

Decided this year that I'd splash out and shout myself a thermal scope to use with my hand held. Currently looking at options for that. So far the Pard SA45 with rangefinder looks like getting my spondoolies.

Red was hard on my old eyes, have found green good, better than white, area I use it isn't hammered at night. Find with green and possums they don't worry but keep the light on the lower brightness mode. Use night vision to identify then light to shoot.

Originally Posted by tetawa

Not the only one who misses Phil H input on night vision.

i actually repaired one of his NV units.
where has he gone ???

Originally Posted by gonetropo

i actually repaired one of his NV units.
where has he gone ???

Understand he upset the apple cart.

He questioned gun city’s favourite trade me auction bidder, And that was it.

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

A good subject Craig that a lot of hunters seem to be interested in. I've been using a Tikka 6.5 CM for the last three years with a variety of Maxtoch torches mounted on the scope in conjunction with a hand held pulsar thermal and bipod. This is what several mates use also. I've had quite a bit of success on the japs with this in tussock country. However, I've had many balls ups too when the torch lit up a clump of tussock in front of me that I didn't know was there. Instant animal gone every time. The deer normally will bolt after about three seconds with the spot on them anyway so getting all lined up before throwing the switch is crucial. Probably a result of their genetics imprinted with sixty years of being spotlighted. Tried a green beam and found it worse than white. Haven't tried a red spotlight yet. Use a red torch for walking around and it is okay if it's pointed at the ground where it normally would be pointed anyway.

Decided this year that I'd splash out and shout myself a thermal scope to use with my hand held. Currently looking at options for that. So far the Pard SA45 with rangefinder looks like getting my spondoolies.

Check out this iRay (infiRay) GL35r

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmENo54CpVo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjji5fsnPII

Be $1500 approx. below the Pard