Old Single shot rifle

Friend has an old Single shot given to him and was asking if the markings on it identify its age and history?
I have no idea but one of you guys might be able to help??
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@mikee need images of the other side also

Should be a date on there also

Martini Enfield .303 1901 Victoria Regent, NZ marked and sold out of service. The HG is Home Guard with rack number, 3rd grouping (can't remember the unit names either at the mo Division, Battalion???) whichever that area was (Google...). Heaps of info on them online.

if he doesnt want it....yip plenty of homes will be found ,rather quickly too.

We need to see the other side. The 98 and NZ show it was accepted into NZ service in 1898, there should also be a number on the top of the rear if the action which is it's acceptance number. which is a bit at odds with the 1901 date. Unless it came as a 577/450 or mm
Most if these and there were around 4 thousand were used for training territorials but some went to south africa. If mm martini Metford it could have been upgraded to an Enfield barrel at that date. There will be serial nos etc to support this as the English loved to stamp everything.

Wow that's a fantastic rifle there mate. That would cause me to enter the black powder game

Lovely old thing
Be nice to own
You mate should hold on to it if he can

Trying to get pic of other side of receiver but this was a Pic I didn't put on original post
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I think the rifle may have family significance

Yeah sorry should have mentioned that, the 1901 is conversion date to .303 with Enfield rifled barrel, RHS of the action body carries the original manufacture and build dates. What is interesting is that it's spent 3 years in NZ between N^Z stamping in 1898 and conversion in 1901. Not long for 4 or 5 months shipping as well...

Is there any where on the forum to discuss the value of rifles like this,?
I have a ME I'd like some idea of value on plus a MH complete with aiming tube the same.

Greetings all,
The date, if any, on the opposite side of the receiver is important as it tells us when the rifle was made. Compared with mine the NZ and 98 stampings look crude which makes me wonder about them. I wonder what the S means. The number on the top rear of the receiver is much higher than mine which is only three digit. There is a story here which someone with more knowledge may be able to unravel for us.
Regards Grandpamac.
PS, The rifles in use in South Africa were carbines which our mystery rifle was not. The carbines were replaced with bolt actions in early 1900 while our mystery rifle was still a 577-450.

@grandpamac Under the top handguard there will be another S. That's the full sold out of service mark, 2 broad arrows nose to nose with an S either side.
The back numbers go up to 4000, so yours is a reasonably early one

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

@grandpamac Under the top handguard there will be another S. That's the full sold out of service mark, 2 broad arrows nose to nose with an S either side.
The back numbers go up to 4000, so yours is a reasonably early one

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Thanks for that @Marty Henry,
Mine is stamped 193 just behind the breech block so perhaps it went to Africa with the first two contingents. It is far from original now though. Do we know if the Martinis were delivered in batches or one big shipment? Mine was manufactured in 1881 and converted in 1896.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings all,
The date, if any, on the opposite side of the receiver is important as it tells us when the rifle was made. Compared with mine the NZ and 98 stampings look crude which makes me wonder about them. I wonder what the S means. The number on the top rear of the receiver is much higher than mine which is only three digit. There is a story here which someone with more knowledge may be able to unravel for us.
Regards Grandpamac.
PS, The rifles in use in South Africa were carbines which our mystery rifle was not. The carbines were replaced with bolt actions in early 1900 while our mystery rifle was still a 577-450.

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How many complete carbines are around in NZ?

Thanks for replies so far. I will post any more pictures when i get them

It is a standard .303 Martini-Enfield rifle and the 98 on the top of the body is the year of the Government purchase order (not necessarily the year of delivery). Not all M-E's were conversions as by the late 1890's the supply of donor Martini-Henrys was drying up and new manufacture of M-E's was undertaken. There are two types of breech blocks, the first being converted from the M-H with a dovetailed plate inserted to fit the smaller diameter firing pin (needed because of the much higher pressure of the .303 cartridge), and the second being the newly manufactured .303 type. I had a carbine in my collection (part of the 1898 order) that was newly manufactured in 1902. The photo of the right side of the action will show the date of the donor rifle. The M-E rifles and carbines were relegated to cadet training well before WW1 and were not completely phased out until the 1960's. I clearly remember a delivery of extra rifles from King Edward barracks in Ch-Ch to Cashmere High School in 1963 that consisted entirely of M-E carbines and NZ Pattern L-E carbines. They were only needed for the one day so we had enough rifles for a full battalion parade, as the school armoury only had about 200 SMLE's.

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Originally Posted by gundoc

It is a standard .303 Martini-Enfield rifle and the 98 on the top of the body is the year of the Government purchase order (not necessarily the year of delivery). Not all M-E's were conversions as by the late 1890's the supply of donor Martini-Henrys was drying up and new manufacture of M-E's was undertaken. There are two types of breech blocks, the first being converted from the M-H with a dovetailed plate inserted to fit the smaller diameter firing pin (needed because of the much higher pressure of the .303 cartridge), and the second being the newly manufactured .303 type. I had a carbine in my collection (part of the 1898 order) that was newly manufactured in 1902. The photo of the right side of the action will show the date of the donor rifle. The M-E rifles and carbines were relegated to cadet training well before WW1 and were not completely phased out until the 1960's. I clearly remember a delivery of extra rifles from King Edward barracks in Ch-Ch to Cashmere High School in 1963 that consisted entirely of M-E carbines and NZ Pattern L-E carbines. They were only needed for the one day so we had enough rifles for a full battalion parade, as the school armoury only had about 200 SMLE's.

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Thanks @gundoc,
That explains everything. Except why NZ was still buying single shots in the late 1890's. Penny pinching during a depression perhaps.
Regards Grandpamac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gundoc

It is a standard .303 Martini-Enfield rifle and the 98 on the top of the body is the year of the Government purchase order (not necessarily the year of delivery). Not all M-E's were conversions as by the late 1890's the supply of donor Martini-Henrys was drying up and new manufacture of M-E's was undertaken. There are two types of breech blocks, the first being converted from the M-H with a dovetailed plate inserted to fit the smaller diameter firing pin (needed because of the much higher pressure of the .303 cartridge), and the second being the newly manufactured .303 type. I had a carbine in my collection (part of the 1898 order) that was newly manufactured in 1902. The photo of the right side of the action will show the date of the donor rifle. The M-E rifles and carbines were relegated to cadet training well before WW1 and were not completely phased out until the 1960's. I clearly remember a delivery of extra rifles from King Edward barracks in Ch-Ch to Cashmere High School in 1963 that consisted entirely of M-E carbines and NZ Pattern L-E carbines. They were only needed for the one day so we had enough rifles for a full battalion parade, as the school armoury only had about 200 SMLE's.

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Now theres a thought..........Imagine a school today being allowed to even think about having a parade with anything that resembles a rifle......Let alone have to borrow more for it because they only had 200 on hand.....Love it...

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Thanks @gundoc,
That explains everything. Except why NZ was still buying single shots in the late 1890's. Penny pinching during a depression perhaps.
Regards Grandpamac.

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It was what they could get - Mummy country was often not the most forthcoming with arms, hence the conversions and 'NZ' pattern contract stuff we got from the non-military manufacturer's.

Nice... I like this game.. Whats mine?

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HRB Co stands for Henry Rifle Barrel Company that did the conversion to .303 in 1898. AC II stands for Artillery Carbine Mark II. The fore-end is incorrect but is similar to the first pattern .303 carbines but it is too short between the band and the nose cap. I suspect that the barrel has been shortened, the correct carbine front sight refitted, and the fore-end shortened to be the correct length for the bayonet. The separate nose cap is from a .577/.450 Martini-Henry carbine. there could be other discrepancies that would be more obvious from a physical examination.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gundoc

HRB Co stands for Henry Rifle Barrel Company that did the conversion to .303 in 1898. AC II stands for Artillery Carbine Mark II. The fore-end is incorrect but is similar to the first pattern .303 carbines but it is too short between the band and the nose cap. I suspect that the barrel has been shortened, the correct carbine front sight refitted, and the fore-end shortened to be the correct length for the bayonet. The separate nose cap is from a .577/.450 Martini-Henry carbine. there could be other discrepancies that would be more obvious from a physical examination.

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Thank you for the HRB co info. What does the ICI on the other side stand for?
The barrel hasnt been shortened, it is the factory artillary carbine length, the fore wood is from a rifle length ME that had the front cut off and shaped without the end cap. This is why the barrel band is further forward. A common mod done by local armorer's for the cadets/schools. I added the nose cap and have been hunting for the correct mkII fore wood that doesnt have a barrel band to replace it at some stage.

It looked like this:

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It should and will eventually look like the one at the bottom of this pic:
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IC1 interchangeable carbine 1 the idea was to make one that with a change in stock could be used by both arms needing a shorter rifle.

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Originally Posted by Tommy

How many complete carbines are around in NZ?

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Quite a few. I seem to come across them more than the longs

Bloody great thread this
Just saying

Found this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AROt...nel=HistoryHit
Interesting

Great thread.

It would be interesting to know how many Martini Enfield's were ordered and delivered to NZ?

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Dad has an original unconverted one in 577-450 complete with bayonet
I have a martini sporter in 450/500 BPE
And a custom 45-70 on an me303 action as above
Good rifles