Opinions on accuracy

People today have had "goodwill and integrity" bred out of them.

At the risk of appearing a total twat, you have had someone else shoot it just in case its you.

My 6.5SAUM bounces all over the place like a patron in a B&D parlour being whipped if you don't pay attention when you shoot it (groups accordingly) and use the unsupported forend technique which is all de-rigor today(unbraked and using a bipod).

but actually if you pay attention and hold that foreend it shoots quite well, 1/2 inch or less which a bit of practise on my part

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Originally Posted by Frosty

The term accurate differs between your opinions, you've now modified rifle since the purchase, its 2nd hand off trade me so he can only give you a description of how it shoots to the best of his knowledge. If hes a private trader I rekon you might not get anywhere with it. Not trying to have a go at you or anything, Its just my opinion. I do hope it goes well for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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All Good - I know your not having a go - it's always good hearing others opinions. I haven't given my opinion of what I term of being "very accurate" yet I believe? Could be wrong? I've classed as whats not accurate. i've stated that I would settle for 2" consistant groups. But thats just me being soft :P theres and act called the Contractual Remedies Act that does have some weight behind it when you purchase something that is not as it was described as - even with private traders. I may not get anywhere with the dispute tribunal but if nothing else comes out of it other than he describes goods he sells in the future more accurately (no pun intended) then I'm happy with that. I've got a very young family at home so I can't afford to go running of testing loads willy nilly, nor spend money like I've got a money tree. To test loads takes out half of a day not including rifle cleaning.

I think we've covered what accuracy one would expect from a custom built rifle describe as very accurate. I wouldn't even describe my main shooter as very accurate and it'll print groups from 1.2" to 3 " - generally averaging 2" at 300yds. Its an accurate rifle.

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Originally Posted by mikee

People today have had "goodwill and integrity" bred out of them.

At the risk of appearing a total twat, you have had someone else shoot it just in case its you.

My 6.5SAUM bounces all over the place like a patron in a B&D parlour being whipped if you don't pay attention when you shoot it (groups accordingly) and use the unsupported forend technique which is all de-rigor today(unbraked and using a bipod).

but actually if you pay attention and hold that foreend it shoots quite well, 1/2 inch or less which a bit of practise on my part

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Yeah had someone else shoot it - but still the same. It's a soft shooter compared to my .270 and has a better trigger so If I can shoot my no 1 well enough I expect I can do the same to my new shitter. I've always struggled with the forend hold (on my rifle anyway). Just seems unnautural to this gumpy bugger. haha

if as you say "you've always struggled with forend hold" you may well have found your problem/solution
the new toy might be a jumpy bitch that needs a firm hand on the reins.....
as the mouse said "its worth a crack Nigel...Nigel........"

It's a 6mm rem so I doubt it's gonna need a firm hold.

its worth a crack Nigel...Nigel........hahaha that brings back memories... man I'm getting old!!

if someone said its very accurate id expect max 1 min groups. that would be allowing me time to get used to the gun and how to shoot it. would hope to improve a little as i got used to it. Ive had a similar problem with a truck i sold and let the guy take it before paying. never saw the $. went through small courts. got nothing for it. still pissed and that was 6 yrs ago. Throw the book and maybe rifle at him i say>
good luck.

@Grunta, pls explain (in detail) exactly what base you are shooting this rifle from when testing.

position : prone, bench, offhand

underlying support : concrete bench, flimsy wood table, ground

front rest : bag, bipod, hand-held

rear rest : bag, nothing ?

@Grunta when you get a sec can you check the twist rate plz im still thinking it may be an early 6mmrem twist for light bullets
heres how https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq8DM6Do72A could use masking tape or what ever dosn't have to be what he says

heres an easyer to understand way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdoCNZBlRGQ

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Originally Posted by Grunta

Something that is semi accurate or a purchase price refund.

I gave him the option of taking it back and looking at it but he wont.

When I was selling a brno zk601 in a .243 earlier in the year I clearly stated that it had a wee bit of pitting in the barrel and I hadn't put a singke shot done the tube so I didnt know how it shot. Thats pretty clear cut. I could've said it had some rust pits but still shot good enough - but why bullshit? When I sell something ill make sure its description is exactly what it is. If not ill sort it out. Simple business ethics.

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Ah but there are more than a few on TM that have none and sell absolutely worn out crap.

"I gave him the option of taking it back and looking at it but he wont." The thing is I did this with what turned out to be a worn out LB 303 and the guy then claimed he'd spent the money on "medical bills" and couldn't pay me. Where you come unstuck is with the disputes tribunal its about a dispute and not a debt as I found out when I tried to lodge a claim against him, I couldnt.

Check the twist rate, are the holes round in the paper assuming you hit it ?

It doesn't matter what brand the barrel is if its been abused or its worn out.

Bring it over with everything if you are over this way.

Hard luck...hope it goes well for you. Let us know.

I'm way too paranoid to buy a rifle off trademe. A shotgun maybe (millimeter accuracy is less important).

Would depend what you paid for it, but i'd want MOA accuracy from that description. And if you paid a lot then i'd want better...

I am just always thinking why would anyone sell a really accurate rifle. I know I never would unless my financial situation got so bad I needed the cash to pay bills, etc. And if I did, I would include pictures of groupings and the ammo used, etc, and the group sizes that could be expected of it in the add.

I'm a bit of a skeptic though!

Did you check the rifling twist? That barrel might be 244 Remington :-) I mean it might like short bullets.
Try the light weight end of the 6 mm range, like a 68 gr or 75 gr flat base hollow point. If these don't shoot then yes you have a bad barrel.

Sorry for the late response guys - been one of those days.
@ebf shooting is how I normally test my loads with my rifles - bipod up front and I replicate my day bag under the butt. Im 100% confident its not a teqnique issue. Its a puppy compared to the .270. I shoot from the same spot each time pretty much.
@rambo-6mmrem - twist rate is either 1 in 10 or 1 in 9 so should handle 90 - 95 grain pills but have tried lighter projectiles. All the reloaded ammo and factory ammo supplied by the guy was 100gr so if it was - and i now dislike this word haha - "very accurate" and the twist was wrong id hate to know how accurate it is with lighter projectiles? Super doper fragilistically accurate! Will view the youtube clip and report back - cheers for your help via pm too - good info :)
@Kiwi Greg - cheers man. I visit dirty ol Nelson every now and again so will give a tinkle.
@Friwi - Good point - I did massive research after the first round of test shooting and learnt a quite a bit about the il 6mm rem. Its more modern than the .244 saga so at worst it'll have a 1 in 10" twist.

And to everyone else - appreciate the comments and feedback :thumbsup:

Forgot to add to the above guys @robhughes-games and @steven with your guys cases - sucks when things are so clear cut and the system rules against. I don't understand the way the law works and I dont try as it seems one rule for some, another for others and then if you have a bit of coin - then another rule comes into play or if I just had a hit of my crack pipe and ran someone over thn slit her throat but I didnt mean to therfore its not my fault rule.......it goes on and on sadly. When I take this to the disputes and if I loose I'll take it on the chin and move on.

Would it be disputes tribunal or small claims court?

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Originally Posted by GravelBen

Would it be disputes tribunal or small claims court?

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Its the same thing from my understanding. The disputes was called small claims.

My understanding is 'small claims" no longer exists it is now the disputes tribunal. However I think the small claims could include debt? the disputes tribunal does not. So in my case I sent the gun back and the guy said sorry I cant refund the money, have a nice day, so I got fsked over.

Some good info here about disputes tribunal etc https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/auctions

Most Dodgy pricks don't give a shit, they have so many semi plausible excuses/lies its incredible, they have more cheek than a fat ladies arse & rely on the fact that it is usually too difficult for people to do bugger all about it & the law lacks teeth & people don't spread the word that well that they get ripped off because they feel embarrassed that it happened to them.

Came across an absolute shocker at work recently, I thought someone had put something in my coffee & I was hallucinating when the Lady rang, turns out a local "pillar of the industry" made a top out of material 1/2 the thickness than the industry standard, in fact it is clearly stated it is for vertical use only, he has had many many sheets of this material & will have untold expensive tops out there made from a substandard material. She is in a corner & has rung everyone one now including Fairgo, even the Lawyers aren't really interested, extremely disappointing situation, you trust someone to provide you with the appropriate product for the job especially when they are a "certified fabricator".....at least everyone in the industry will know now, I wonder if he turns up to the next meeting ? I might have to go for a change....

Cheers again for info and feedback guys. Have just finished submitting my claim. The ball has started rolling. :thumbsup: so now let the slow slow wheels of justice turn!

A little late in reading this sorry, but for me MOA or less is worth bragging about... 3MOA yeah-nah...not so much.

His hand loads should be the key here, if that's his best loads and 3" groups are what they group, then it's not flash.

You could try autosol and take the barrel back to perfectly clean, then put 10 shots through it, then try a group. A really clean barrel will not group very well until you foul it up a bit after such an aggressive clean.

But with all that said, his hand loads should have done better than 3" right from the get go.

Best of luck.

Kj

have you tried hand loading for it yourself

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Originally Posted by northdude

have you tried hand loading for it yourself

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Yip.done over 100 reloads. Any that showed promised I played with seating depths etc. Ive never ever in my life not found a load within a trip or 2 to the range. I've done over 6 trips and still no closer than after the 1st. Its not a complicated caliber

is it consistant with where the shots are going on the target or is it just randomly putting them all over the place

I agree with Greg in post 61. Unfortunately even in the shooting fraternity there are some dishonest and unethical pricks. I unfortunately see alot of sob story POS guns that guys have purchased in good faith of TM which turn out to have been overstated as to their condition, and or state of 'fitness' for want of a better term. Guys bring them to me for assessment when they suspect they got sold a lemon and i end up having to give them the bad news. Sucks, but it does happen. How some guys lay straight in bed at night ripping off their fellow shooters i don't know..... But as Greg said, often they dont give a shit, or maybe its a bit of a hoot for them. "Ha ha ripped off some sucker with that POS i sold on TM."......??

Best thing that you can do before you do ANYTHING by way of modifying a gun you have just purchased, it take it to an expert or gunsmith with a borescope and have it checked out before you start doing work on it. Once you have done mods on a gun you pretty much own it. If it is under dispute then it makes it harder to force the seller or providor to take it back if it has been modifed without their consent.

On the other hand, i think therre wre some rifles out there that get sold in good faith as "accurate" but just not accurately described at the time of sale. Case i can remember was a rifle sold by an older guy as excellent condition and very accurate looked okay on the outside but had a very rough bore. Turned out the guy who owned it had not shot the rifle for 10 years, but had loaned it to a mate or nephew for a few years while he was in Aussie. While he was away the rifle was not well cleaned or maintained, ended up with a rusty and pitted bore as a result. Rifle was returned to the onwer upon his return to nz by the guy who loaned it. Owner never used it again but ended up putting it up for sale on TM as accurate (in good faith) as that is how it shot the last time that HE used it. Unfortunately he wasnt aware of the full extent or severity of the bore damage. I dont recall the exact out outcome of that one, but certainly there was no dispute about the fact that the rifle was not accurately described at the time of sale, even though in the mind of the seller it was 'mint'.

Worst case scenario for you is put it down to experience, but would still be a good idea to have someone with a borescope to check the bore out for you. Sorry, but i dont think you will be the last to get sold a dud on TM, or other online used gear outlets.......... :oh noes:

I have bought quite a few rifles off TM. The first one was a shocker and put me off TM for a long while. It was an Anschutz 22 Hornet with a great description. When I received it I found the outside condition not great (first lesson, request more detailed photos in the listing if needed). More appallingly the barrel was rooted. The scope, again not visible in the photos was bent. The scope was mounted with the bend under the rear ring - how the f do you put a sharp bend in a scope. Any rate long story short I eventually got my money back but still cost me the return shipping. I was pooing myself waiting for my money.
The other turn off for me with TM listings is where sellers say "I have not personally shot it myself" (sorry Grunta). To me even if this is true it is laying the groundwork for a potential cop out if it is a dud. Buyer beware advise from someone who has been suckered but escaped. I now limit my purchases to either cheap items like older 22s or if more expensive to something I can collect and then reject if it looks bad. Doesn't help in the case of claimed accuracy issues which is always a dodgy standard value person to person.

Descriptions like "pristine", "minter", "one holer", "fired less than a box" - Caveat emptor
You are better probably better to buy something off a regular forum member than TardMe.

"I have not personally shot it myself" when I see this I just do not believe it, its a red flag for me.

Grunta,

Know what? Have you slugged the bore?

Josh

Sometimes it's true, I've made a few rifles over the years that I never got around to shooting. Mostly due to the project not really being needed (i have way to many guns already), or not having the dies or just didn't have a scope for it or whatever... then in the meantime something else pops up I want more and the unfired project gets sold. But if I haven't shot it, I declare it and don't make up an accuracy figure.

So it does happen, but how often its genuine I'm not sure?

Kj

The most overused word in descriptions on Trademe is 'mint'. I also had to go through the Disputes Tribunal about a shotgun which was 'mint', but when it arrived it had rust patches, and other signs of ill-use. I showed up at the hearing with an official opinion from a reputable gunshop owner about the condition and some dictionary explanations of what 'mint' means (unused, unissued coin or stamp). I got my money back but it was a bit of a drag. Later, I used a borescope and checked my own rifles. I had a very accurate Sako 243 which I had been very careful about with regards to cleaning and use. It had 748 rounds down the tube from new. The bore looked like a plowed field. It was still accurate but how long that was going to last was probably a very short time. The rifle that is of interest in this thread may have been on the edge of falling into inaccuracy. I checked a couple of second hand rifles in a gunshop that I was thinking of buying (described as 'mint' by the sales person). The barrels had pits and copper for Zambia (which probably had more pits underneath). I checked a couple of new rifles in the same shop and they also had rust inside them. So, it is not just on Trademe that you get damaged goods. Even new goods may be damaged, and any gunshop that is worth your cash will offer to let you use their borescope to check the inside of the barrel before exchanging with your 'mint' money.

They don't all have bore scopes, or they don't openly say they have. I took mine into gun shop to check out a rifle that I was on the cusp of buying - had looked at it on a previous visit - bore was badly pitted. Outcome - I departed with my money still in my pocket complete with shop owner's metaphoric dagger firmly in my back. I am sure it was soon sold though. Rile was in A1 condition on the outside too.

Update guys and girls.

Had my hearing today...............Winner winner chicken dinner! :thumbsup:

Have you checked the twist rate? I have no idea if it's critical with that calibre but with some it is.

Here's a shock for all. A green shop in dunners tried to sell me a 223 a while back, outside looked bloody tidy so a look down the tube was called for. Had to get the shop guy to clean it because it was that dusty. Once that was done the do not buy decision took at least 1.5 seconds. The thing was fucked.
Where did it go? Straight back on the shelf for some poor bastard to get lumbered with.

Yeah have checked the twist rate. Literally had tried everything. I ended up getting it borescoped by another Smith and it was deemed the throat was pretty corroded. Not sure why it wasn't picked up on by the original Smith but at least the problem was found.

Good outcome and it was the right outcome. .

"green shops" are on the top of where not to shop. :D

Will a re chamber fix it?

congrats!!!

:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Wirehunt

Will a re chamber fix it?

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No it wont, new barrel jobby. But thats now the previous owners problem. The action and trigger were nice, so it is a pity to hand the rifle back but so be it. Just hope that who ever next buys it will be told about the dud barrel. Ill keep an eye out for it though.