OVL requirement advice

Hi again guys

Wasn't too sure if I should ask this on my other thread or make a new one, so I thought I would make a new one to be safe.

Just wondering if the OVL requirement for rifles minimum length is taken from a collapsible stock in its open or closed position. Reason I ask is I have been looking into DI rifles at your guys behest and the Daniel Defence MK18 (25 inch collapsed stock?) has taken my fancy as an overall rifle for my uses and the short length would be great for the bush around here and quick pointing for the gauntlet at the club which is all about speed at close ranges.

If the mk18 IS too short to be classed as a rifle (ecat) then what options do I have to increase its OVL to the required 762mm aside from longer stocks or large muzzle brakes/flash hiders?

Thanks again

I'm pretty sure it's from the closed postion.

I think some people can pin them before sending it over

MK18's are sexy as shit, I want to build one, but again, I'm not even sure about the OAL thing. You will generally get two answers - with the stock collapsed or with it extended and measured diagonally from the muzzle to the toe of the stock. It is confusing because there are quite a few guns on E cat tickets that look like they are taking the piss OAL wise.

Gotta be extended because that's the greatest measurement on the longest axis which is the definition of length. Plus there are folding AKs on E that are less than 762mm which surely sets some sort of precedent

Or pin the stock open so it's over 762mm to be safe.

I might have to call the arms officer on this one, or does it go beyond them for what gets imported and ticketed/classed as ecat rifles?

The default state of the mk18 is how I would want it and I'm not entirely sure on what LOP would suit me with it as I have never held one or something else that short to compare, so pinning the stock would run the risk of having it "not right"... Or can I change out the stock to something else I find that's legal length after its pinned (without an armourers help)?

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To have it legal length you'd be looking at a ~13-14 inch LOP

Arms officer is going to tell you it's with the stock collapsed.

No moutere, I'm asking how overall length is measured on a rifle with collapsible stock to get the OVL measurement to comply with the 762mm length to be classed as a rifle and not a pistol and if the DD MK18 in stock format is below that minimum and how to make it legal length without totally reworking it.

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Either permanently attach a long flash hider, muzzle brake, or suppressor (there is no recognised standard for "permanently attached" in New Zealand because there's nothing in the legislation) or attach a longer stock. Those are your options. Or be the test case in court to argue that it should be measured with the stock open. If you do the third option, please get a really good lawyer and make sure you win.

i would say give you local AO a call and ask them :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Dynastar27

i would say give you local AO a call and ask them :thumbsup:

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I would say to ring as many AO's as you can...put their answers on strips of paper and put in a hat, pull one out and go with that.

I wonder if throwing a Magpul PRS on it would give it minimum length.

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Ive had a fair bit to do with this topic recently and can offer advice based on police opinion and legal advice. Spanners has told me not to discuss anything commercial on this forum though so I cant really go into it in any depth. Feel free to contact me for the results outside of the forum though.

I looked long and hard at this and got to the point where if It can be fired while shorter than 762mm it is classed as a pistol

if you get a arms officer on a vendetta then he will look to prosecute you,
meaning confiscate firearms and licence till you prove what you have is legal

one arms officer was trying to convince a good friend that a pump action with a pistol grip was an ecat.
not all of them know the rules

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Originally Posted by Bill999

I looked long and hard at this and got to the point where if It can be fired while shorter than 762mm it is classed as a pistol

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Most bolt guns are under 762mm with the stock removed and can be fired in that condition. So if you're in possession of a barrelled action and bolt with no stock, do you have a pistol or an incomplete rifle? Logic would say incomplete rifle because the gun is designed to have a stock. I'd use this same argument for muzzle devices counting towards OVL. Most people say a muzzle device has to be perm attached to count. Yet, stocks don't need to be perm attached to count. If the rifle has a threaded muzzle then it is clearly designed to have something attached and is incomplete without said attachment. The counter argument to this would be 'You could attach a thread protector or other muzzle device that doesn't meet OVL'. Well, you could also replace you non perm attached stock with one that doesn't meet OVL.

If you haven't already go to GUNSTRUCTION - Sponsored By Troy Industries and Only Available On AR15.COM

You can build a DD MK18 (all the parts are brand named). The statistics button will tell you the OVL. Swap round stocks and muzzle devices until you get something you're happy with and the legal OVL.

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Originally Posted by Macca

I wonder if throwing a Magpul PRS on it would give it minimum length.

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Yes but it's be horrible - they weigh a ton and the balance would be awful. They're not made for short handy guns, they're for boat anchor "precision rifles". An A1, A2, Magpul MOE rifle length or a collapsible pinned open are better options.

compeltly agree, my 1022 would work fine without the stock,
if the brake is pinned on like how my RRAs one was, which was drilled then filled with weld or solder that was damn near impossible to get off it would pass
a suppressor that spins off in 5 seconds flat would not

I still want to do a extreamly short subsonic 22 with a suppressor perminantly fitted bringing it up to 762mm, welded or similar but you need a engineer that is prepaired to do it that does decent work and is prepaired to work in the grey area between cutting the barrel and perminantly fitting the supp to the rifle

and just so you A-cat guys know the spear mag A-cat stocks are about a cm shorter than the standard a2? stock
I had to do a remeasure to make sure all is ok

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Originally Posted by Bill999

if the brake is pinned on like how my RRAs one was, which was drilled then filled with weld or solder that was damn near impossible to get off it would pass
a suppressor that spins off in 5 seconds flat would not

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I know that that's the way it seems to be, but why should a 5 second to remove muzzle device not count, when a 15 second to unscrew and remove stock does?
I would say they both count because the screw hole in the receiver means the gun was designed to have a stock and the threaded barrel means the gun was designed to have a muzzle device. Removing either would the render the gun incomplete even though still functional.

Having a muzzle device that brings the OAL over 762 mm clearly shows intent to comply.

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Originally Posted by Bill999

and just so you A-cat guys know the spear mag A-cat stocks are about a cm shorter than the standard a2? stock
I had to do a remeasure to make sure all is ok

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A1 length - same as Magpul fixed rifle stock

Just called the AO at the Tauranga police branch, who claims that the 762mm length requirement only applies to A category firearms, and if its registered as an MSSA then the length doesn't matter as its endorsed as an E Not an A or a pistol.

Going to call a few more later to get a wider pool of opinions but for now smokos over.

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Originally Posted by Macca

Just called the AO at the Tauranga police branch, who claims that the 762mm length requirement only applies to A category firearms, and if its registered as an MSSA then the length doesn't matter as its endorsed as an E Not an A or a pistol.

Going to call a few more later to get a wider pool of opinions but for now smokos over.

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That sounds awesome, but I kinda doubt it. The law just states that anything under 762mm is a handgun, doesn't mention anything about that only applying to A cats. If it is true, what stops us from getting handguns on E?

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Originally Posted by Banana

That sounds awesome, but I kinda doubt it. The law just states that anything under 762mm is a handgun, doesn't mention anything about that only applying to A cats. If it is true, what stops us from getting handguns on E?

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It's like porn: you know it when you see it.

But hey get that in writing, and we're set. Brb buying a hacksaw

haha time for a Noveske diplomat

Perhaps its down to the individual arms officers wether they see it as a pistol or a rifle and if they choose to enforce the unspecified law around it?

Will have to do some more digging as an unknown in the realm of pestering AO's about their knowledge of the laws 😉

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its interpretation of an act/law so an arsewipe AO will get on a power trip over a technicality where as a level headed AO will use his judgement

surely when you apply for an import permit they will look then and there right?
or is it coming in on a thai fishing boat :D