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Well just went to the local police station to pickup a S45A mail order form and was refused as I did not have the sellers address and Firearm Licence No. Now I thought this was not a requirement to have these details. Some people just don't want to give out there address and they (the seller) is not required to show there licence only the buyer.
I'm so pissed. Do anyone know the basic law about these forms, what required whats not
You need those details end of story. If the seller won't give out those details then something might be dodgy.
This is the information I find onlineQuote:
Originally Posted by stug
The Police form requesting details of the Seller and information regarding the serial number of the weapon being purchased is incorrect and cannot be insisted upon as the “only form they will sign”. Police have a Statuary duty to sign any form that meets the requirement of Section 43A of the Arms Act 1983.
It's a fucking circus. Three people muttering to each other behind the counter conferring in what they're supposed to do?! They aren't up to it, hand it over to someone else who can I reckon
Yep I've had the same problem, guys FAL only had a box number on it WHEN he checked it on the computer! How does that work? Anyway had to get a street address! They'd probably been looking for him for years!:sick:
It's not the law but it's the process that happens. Besides, what's the big deal for the seller to not show their FAL ? A lot of folks bitch and moan about stolen firearms and criminals - this basic process is one simple way to help reduce the selling of stolen firearms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevs
Do you mean some sellers aren't keen to give out their address to another FAL owner ? Or do you mean they don't want to give out their address to the Police ?Quote:
Some people don't want to give out their address
I've had this problem. I went to buy a firearm off TM, went to copshop to get a form and didn't have the info of the seller and was refused the form.
I got around it by having the seller take the firearm to local HF shop and posted it that way.
I also had similar problem when I bought from a dealer in North Island. I didn't have their dealer number and they wouldn't give it out. So I phoned them from the police station, passed the phone to the officer to talk to them, he took the number direct.
Good news I got the police to sign it. I went back and stood my ground. Stated to them. I was wrong when I stated the form being S45A when its a S43A
'The Police form requesting details of the Seller and information regarding the serial number of the weapon being purchased is incorrect and cannot be insisted upon as the “only form they will sign”. Police have a Statuary duty to sign any form that meets the requirement of Section 43A of the Arms Act 1983.
And then read out the Police Manual section 1.36
Ammunition
A person who sells/supplies ammunition does not require a Firearms Licence. A person in
possession of ammunition does not require a Firearms Licence, but must possess it for
lawful, proper and sufficient purpose (Section 45, Arms Act 1983).
Then I repeated those statements again and ask them to read the Section 45, Arms Act 1983....
Result! Good on you for standing up and explaining what they should already know. Fast losing patience with this sort of incompetent stickler standing behind a counter. They see it as their duty to stand in the way for the sake of it
Having read S43A of the arms act there is no mention of the requirement to supply the police any of the firearm details, address or most of the info they "require" All the form is required to say is that the police have inspected the purchasers firearms license and is satisfied that the purchaser is a fit and proper person to purchase that firearm or ammunition. See below. Now I have no problem filling out most of the form, but considering it is sent to the seller, why does the seller need to know where the seller lives? surely they already know, they live there.
Quoted from http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/p....html#DLM72906
though some formatting did not work on this post.
Mail order sale of firearm or ammunition
(1) Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who sells by mail order a firearm or any ammunition for a firearm or restricted weapon otherwise than pursuant to a written order—
. (a) signed by the purchaser; and
. (b) bearing an endorsement signed by a member of the Police and stating that the member of the Police—
. -(i) has inspected the purchaser's firearms licence; and
. -(ii) is satisfied that the purchaser is a fit and proper person to purchase that firearm or ammunition.
(2) Nothing in this section applies in relation to—
. (a) any pistol, restricted weapon, or military style semi-automatic firearm; or
. (b) any ammunition for a firearm to which paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) of section 22(1) applies.
Section 43A: inserted, on 1 November 1992, by section 21 of the Arms Amendment Act 1992 (1992 No 95).
Section 43A(1): amended, on 1 July 2013, by section 413 of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 (2011 No 81).
Thanks for that, I'll be printing that off and taking it along next time. (Not to wave around when I walk in the door, but for when Little Miss Fusspot has a spazz and I've tried reasoning etc and it's failed. Ie like last week)Quote:
Originally Posted by timattalon
As I understand the law, as it was explained to me by an Arms officer when I when to get said form and them being out of said form that all that was necessary was for a sworn officer to verify that my license was valid, being that it was he photocopied it on to a A4 sheet of paper and wrote his badge number and signed it said that was all that was required, I returned to work faxed the signed paper to the suppler and the goods arrived in due course the AO never even asked what I was buying none of his business, it's just the anal wankers in head office with nothing better to do trying to justify their over paid positions and the poor foot sloggers not understanding the firearms law, my local station staff won't do any firearms related stuff if the AO is away have to wait until she returns, she must get really pissed off after being on holiday for a week coming back to a pile of work that could have been done by any of the worker bees it the hive lazy barstards
Well just went back to get another S43A form and again I was asked to fill in the Sellers details so yip I read my little speech out again. This time I only had to say it once
'The Police form requesting details of the Seller and information regarding the serial number of the weapon being purchased is incorrect and cannot be insisted upon as the “only form they will sign”. Police have a Statuary duty to sign any form that meets the requirement of Section 43A of the Arms Act 1983.
But what I don't understand is I fill in the form they sign it and hand it back to me, they basically don't record anything, they have no record as they don't keep no copy. So its not like they are going or can use any of the information. Anyway I'm happy plus there was no way I was going to leave without getting it signed. :)
Why can't I just swear my FAL is legal and mine, it's just bullshit. Wonder if the crims get them filled out or just us losers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
They would be so easy to fake for a crim, mostly if they want to buy a firearm, just download the form off the internet put any AO name (easy to google it) in there and sign it your self (random scribble), just need different hand writing, use an address of someone who looks like they are on holiday as the purchaser address and a random number (close to a normal number) for a firearm licence no. Only way you would find out its fake if you ring the police station, don't think anyone (Private Sale) would bother to ring and find out.
Like for me there is nothing stopping me from using this same S43A mail order form over and over, there's no Seller information, if there was could easily photo shop it out and the police like I said don't keep a copy so how would they know if I use it more than once.
At the end of the day the whole form is a piece of shit paper that makes it easier for crims to get guns
Yep need them they wont issue you with one otherwise ive been refused on that a few times now so i just have all the details with me now
And why argue yes maybe it is tecnicly not requied but how hard is it to give them the details honestly and its not realy worth worrieing about theres far bigger fish to fry than worrieing about weather the police ask you for sellers details or not
As a seller Im someone who wouldnt want to just hand over my address where guns r kept to a perfect stranger. Not all strangers are bad but not taking that risk.. so i want to make sure the police stop asking.
All police are strangers to me?
This illustrates clearly and conciesely why I cant be bothered ordering online.
I would be more worried about the police seeing your avatar if I was you. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevs
the way it was put to me is they check the fal of the seller on the computer to make sure everything matches up remember that these police that are on desk duty are not firearms experts.... they are not arms officers they are normal cops who happened to be on shift in the office (after hours) they bring up the form it askes for sellers details they will ask you for those details so if as you say they are not needed then they need to get rid of that section of the form I never ask the seller for the address only name and fal number and the police look up the address on the computer using that info that way it gives the seller piece of mind that I am who I say I am and im not going to come and rip them off
You mean to say that the police actually have firearm experts? Must keep them hidden in the cells I havent met one yet. Although some of the nicest firearm collections I believe are owned by AOs. must have a good source of supply?
Maybe the form just needs a quick update, with "(Optional)" next to the seller's section, and also possibly the list of arms and ammunition. By the look of things it just needs the buyers details, the date, and the officer's badge number and contact number.
Or just go to an opt-in online database accessible through say, gunshops, cop shops, JPs etc, and just do a search of the buyers number as supplied and see if he does in fact have a license. The buyer would need to 'activate' himself for a set period on the database so he can be checked on (Fortnight maybe?), seller checks at their end, tah-dah
You've just described the reasoning behind stopping online/mail order sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevs
If there is a Z apocalypse I'll try my best not to look to excited :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
FAL not required if your selling Ammo. Police Manual section 1.36Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo-6mmrem
Ammunition
A person who sells/supplies ammunition does not require a Firearms Licence. A person in
possession of ammunition does not require a Firearms Licence, but must possess it for
lawful, proper and sufficient purpose (Section 45, Arms Act 1983).
That's not what 43a is for, it's to check the purchaser does. Also, if someone doesn't have a (current) license, and they sell it someone who does, and they check that they do, is that a problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauser308
No. The issue here is that the obstructions seem to be on the other side of the desk. I obey the law, so should they.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauser308
Eh? What does that have to do with it? Unlicensed holders don't go down the police station and fill out a form, they buy the rifle off Joe down the pub, or get them in burglariesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mauser308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauser308
How do you figure that when the cop looks at the form and signs it and I take it away?
I have one station that did fill it online but most of the time they sign and give it back to me. As u sais No copy is kept. The s43a is only meant to prove ur a licence holder, nothing more than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexla