Thread: Quiet effective sub caliber for hunting, is there such a thing?

Originally Posted by MB

The OP:

that limits the options quite a bit?

300 blk?

ask your self this honest question am I playing with firearms' or am I hunting to put some venison in my freezer - if you are hunting to put some meat in the freezer then a suppressed .223 or 308 will do the job - if you want to play then spend your money on whatever takes ya fancy 45.70 try it - have fun

In some ways, killing power ultimately comes down to speed as a fundamental rather than a factor. When a projectile is going relatively slowly such as subsonic, it can create a situation where animal organ tissue is supple enough to yeild to the projectile. Essentially avoiding hydrostatic shock.

Think of it this way...
Would you rather be hit by a bus doing 4km/h or a cyclist doing 45km/h

Both have similar kinetic energy but you would bounce off the bus and the actual impact of the bus agains't your person would not cause much if any injury (here we ignore hitting the ground or getting squashed as we would with a bullet). If you get hit by the cyclist, it will result in significant impact injury from the same amount of kinetic energy.

Another way to look at it, is to take the slower heavier projectile to an extreme that helps us picture difference in slow and heavy vs fast and light.
A rugby ball fired at a goat or deer at ~200fps will have similar kinetic muzzle energy as a subsonic .44 240gn bullet, or ~220fps to have the same MV as a .22 hornet.
No guarantee that it wouldn't kill a deer, but it would be much more survivable (at least in the immediate) than a .22 hornet with any given matching shot placement.


In saying all of the above, I have shot a number of goats with subsonic .22 and correct shot placement (head/upper spine) at correct angle still results in a bang flop.

Personally I think if you are going to use subsonics on the bigger animals, shot placement is crucial and projectile choice is also important.


If you are adamant about not reloading, then 300blk is probably your best bet, with a reasonable variety of factory subsonics and although limited in power compared to the larger calibres, a still useful selection of high velocity options too.

Im told that crossbow are fickle and in the end no more accurate than a hand bow.

That test fire study concluded that for equivalent hunting a 22LR subsonic was more lethal due to shot placement capability.

Mastering a the bow to hunting level is a lot of time & money and range is really only 25m so dont go down that route unless you’re kinda primitive and kinda OCD as well.

Some one told you porkies

I've played with subs and been disapointed, OK if you shoot a lot and can be precise with shot placement at different ranges as they drop a lot.
My experiance has been that penitration is fine, I have done 6mm subs and they killed by tumbling, and 35 cal lead HP's that just make a large hole.
I now just run a jacketed pistol bullet at 16-1700 fps so still quiet, soft shooting and flatish shooting to 75 mtr. The subs I save for finishing shots and possiums.
So for this reason you probably need to be looking at a pistol caliber 357 - 45 cal to try and make as large a hole as possible in a 16" barrel lever action. (not conviced that a 9mm is enough for deer even at short range)

In my case I reload so I run a 35 cal rifle cartridge in a lever action, I generally carry it with the 158gr Hornady XTP Hp pistol bullets over trailboss at 1650 fps in the mag and keep some full power 225 gr loads for the odd longer shot that may come up.
Z

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...nt-gr-sub-x#!/

If you want something subsonic and factory ammo this is as good as it gets

Factory load = 45 cal therefore a DeLisle Carbine copy from Wingman

What about the 8.6 blackout

https://owloptics.nz/collections/8-6-blk-8-6-blackout (watch the video)

The cheap recurve crossbows aren't great, even if you are using good broadheads. There are modern crossbows that pack a hell of a punch though, albeit on the high end of expensive. A compound bow does take OCD levels of commitment to become proficient with, but can be as accurate or more so than a high end crossbow. However, for this thread. Ignore pointy sticks, and just look at rifle options. I'd go with a 300 BLK because of availability, and that includes some bespoke projectiles in case reloading does become a possibility. At subsonic velocity, you can't rely on bullet expansion, so you need a projectile that will mechanically deform to increase the wound channel, a bit like a broad head. I'm no expert here, but the BTSP that works well at 2500 fps will punch clean through at 900fps simply because it doesn't have the requisite velocity tto mushroom as designed. 300 BLK rifles are generally made with long slow projectiles in mind, which will help a lot with stabilising them, which means good accuracy. A factory rifle and a factory cartridge means you can actually use it, rather than just have it take up space in the safe because ammo is almost never available. I'm sure that is 2 cents worth, so I'll stop there.

Here is some actual real world experience:

https://youtu.be/E4qTP-NIiGA

He is using 190gr Sub-X projectiles in his 308. Very good results, but do pay attention to his shot placement.

As for factory ammo:

http://www.guncity.com/hornady-300-b...hornady-ftx-20

300 blackout.

Same.bullet as the 308 in the video, same velocity, will have the same performance.

I do agree though that a larger/heavier projectile will likely be better:

https://www.guncity.com/hornady-45-7...-rounds-368347

good old 45-70 the only government one should trust...

Originally Posted by Bradp

I've been thinking about the idea of a nice quiet sub gun for hunting for a while now for a number of reasons and have done lots of reading on here etc about the different options but have no experience whatsoever with subs in a centerline.
All shots will be inside 50 meters obviously which most of my hunting usually is and I currently use a 223 so placement is already considered.
I don't reload and won't be starting.

The more I've read the less viable it seems as I don't reload there is only a handful of calibres that shops stock subsonic rounds for. 308 being the most common but it seems penetration can be an issue with subs and expansion even more so, especially with factory offerings.
The other option would be 45-70, already a big hole so expansion isn't as much an issue and a 400 grain round should have better penetration. But all the videos I've seen on YouTube even with a suppressor the 45-70 is still loud , hard to tell from a video but seems not much more quiet than the 223.

So those of you with some sub experience is there actually a viable subsonic calibre that is still quiet and ammunition that is commercially available?

I keep coming back round to the opinion that to get what I want a good crossbow might actually be the best option.

Greetings @Bradp and all,
Relying on factory loads for a specific requirements is bound to be a problem. Even if you find a load that works well for you the chance of it disappearing from the dealers shelves without warning is great. I also understand your reluctance in not wanting to enter the endless rabbit warren that is handloading. You are either into it or not.
May I suggest a halfway solution? There are plenty of one time hunters that have retreated to handloading together with a little target shooting. These chaps (they are mostly chaps) are often looking for a new project and there will be plenty around Rotorua and the CNI. Some will be delighted to assist in your project.
As far as a suitable cartridge goes it would be hard to beat a .308 with an 8 inch twist. You will need plenty of projectile mass to get the penetration.
Regards Grandpamac.

Reality check...

I've only found one factory ammunition option for supersonic 300BLK that is suitable for hunting, the rest being FMJ rounds. There is only one (or two) subsonic 300BLK factory rounds available that are supposedly designed for hunting. I've used Hornady Sub-X and wouldn't recommend it for anything other than well placed head shots. Most of the time, it is not possible to buy any of this ammunition as it is out of stock everywhere.

8.6 Blackout looks great, but you can't easily buy either the rifles or ammunition in NZ. Do a Google search.

If I was to go down the subsonic route again, I'd choose the biggest calibre and the heaviest projectiles available. Since we have chosen to hamstring ourselves by limiting velocity, the only other major factor that we can change in influencing energy delivered is mass of projectile. Of course, projectile design is important as well. We need something that expands and/or fragments at subsonic speeds.

@tikka is the man to talk to.

IMO he’s the guy on this forum that has the best credentials to advise on subsonic use having used them so extensively on deer and goats. Drop him a private message and ask a few questions otherwise he might not see this thread.

FWIW I’ve used a whole bunch of different subsonic projectiles in different calibers on pigs, goats, deer. The larger the hole in the end of the suppressor the bigger the bang. The .44 Rem Mag (pistol round) is noticeably louder than a .308 Win, both shooting the same amount of Trail Boss.

I’ve shot quite a lot of animals (mostly goats) with .308 Win subs with Robert’s 151gr cast HPs, but that’s obviously a self loaded round which isn’t an option for the OP. The round’s effective range is constrained by the terrible trajectory, you must use either a ballistic reticle or preferably dial for even relatively short range shots (say 80m+) because you’re going to need to headshoot to put the animal down, plus you’ll need to be prone or sitting with a tripod / long bipod.

Subsonic is a useful tool but very tightly constrained by projectile ballistics and expansion. @tikka’s fast twist .300 with the LeHigh bullets are by far & away the best performing option, but that’s custom and not off the shelf.