Thread: Redundant Calibres

Originally Posted by Beavis

7.62x39 has become largely redundant in NZ

Hmm…tons of that ammo sitting around.

Originally Posted by Beavis

7.62x39 has become largely redundant in NZ

still a few bolt actions in use in the bush....pretty good cartridge for young folks and sub 150 yard deer ,pigs,goats.... and a few bakail singles too.

Have a look at the list of cartridges (not calibres ffs!) in Quickload and mesmerise yourself at the sheer number of cartridges you’ve never even heard of.

So many odd little men in their sheds making mostly pointless wildcats out of perfectly good pre-existing cartridge cases. But, to be fair, wildcatting is a hobby like many other mostly pointless exercises and if that’s what floats your boat, then go for it. And of course it must be remembered that some of these wildcats have spawned globally dominant cartridges that are already decades old and probably won’t go out of production for decades more to come.

The way I look at today’s new cartridges, is not to focus on the cartridge alone but to look at the barrel twist and projectiles promoted along with it. There’s a lot of cynical commentary about marketing (aimed at Hornady mostly) but the fact is that their new products are very smartly designed and have absolutely raised the bar for some of the long-standing calibres. Efficient, accurate, competition proven and thoroughly successful in the field, easy to load, excellent factory ammunition (e.g. Precision Hunter). Compare the performance of Precision Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor to the traditional 6.5x55 factory ammo and you’ve got a great example of how lots of small incremental improvements add up to make a thoroughly superior product.

Contrast this to Sierra, who in their efforts to keep up with Hornady made an absolute dogs breakfast of the launch of the GameChanger bullets, screwing up the twist rate recommendations for the long-for-calibre bullets (e.g. 90 & 100gr 6mm), with a design that is fickle at best (putting in nicely) with the short bearing surface and very long ogive.

Who won the battle of coloured tips? Red or Green?

If you’re looking for a recent example of a cartridge that’s on a one way ride to redundancy, look at the 6.8 Western. There’s a reason Hornady has been so successful with new cartridges (and bullets, and getting rifle manufacturers to adopt the chamberings). Winchester & Browning probably should have considered why this is the case before they spent all that money designing, manufacturing and promoting a case that’s pretty much disappeared in 6 months. Go check out the availability of 6.8 Western related products… if you bought one of those in mid-2021 I’ll bet you’re wishing you got a .270 Winchester.

Originally Posted by Flyblown

Have a look at the list of cartridges (not calibres ffs!) in Quickload and mesmerise yourself at the sheer number of cartridges you’ve never even heard of.

So many odd little men in their sheds making mostly pointless wildcats out of perfectly good pre-existing cartridge cases. But, to be fair, wildcatting is a hobby like many other mostly pointless exercises and if that’s what floats your boat, then go for it. And of course it must be remembered that some of these wildcats have spawned globally dominant cartridges that are already decades old and probably won’t go out of production for decades more to come.

The way I look at today’s new cartridges, is not to focus on the cartridge alone but to look at the barrel twist and projectiles promoted along with it. There’s a lot of cynical commentary about marketing (aimed at Hornady mostly) but the fact is that their new products are very smartly designed and have absolutely raised the bar for some of the long-standing calibres. Efficient, accurate, competition proven and thoroughly successful in the field, easy to load, excellent factory ammunition (e.g. Precision Hunter). Compare the performance of Precision Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor to the traditional 6.5x55 factory ammo and you’ve got a great example of how lots of small incremental improvements add up to make a thoroughly superior product.

Contrast this to Sierra, who in their efforts to keep up with Hornady made an absolute dogs breakfast of the launch of the GameChanger bullets, screwing up the twist rate recommendations for the long-for-calibre bullets (e.g. 90 & 100gr 6mm), with a design that is fickle at best (putting in nicely) with the short bearing surface and very long ogive.

Who won the battle of coloured tips? Red or Green?

If you’re looking for a recent example of a cartridge that’s on a one way ride to redundancy, look at the 6.8 Western. There’s a reason Hornady has been so successful with new cartridges (and bullets, and getting rifle manufacturers to adopt the chamberings). Winchester & Browning probably should have considered why this is the case before they spent all that money designing, manufacturing and promoting a case that’s pretty much disappeared in 6 months. Go check out the availability of 6.8 Western related products… if you bought one of those in mid-2021 I’ll bet you’re wishing you got a .270 Winchester.

6.8 western will probably do well if the next gen us army squad project goes ahead
its not looking likely tho but at the very least there should be a bit more development on high bc .270 bullets off the back of it

Originally Posted by Flyblown

Have a look at the list of cartridges (not calibres ffs!) in Quickload and mesmerise yourself at the sheer number of cartridges you’ve never even heard of.

So many odd little men in their sheds making mostly pointless wildcats out of perfectly good pre-existing cartridge cases. But, to be fair, wildcatting is a hobby like many other mostly pointless exercises and if that’s what floats your boat, then go for it. And of course it must be remembered that some of these wildcats have spawned globally dominant cartridges that are already decades old and probably won’t go out of production for decades more to come.

The way I look at today’s new cartridges, is not to focus on the cartridge alone but to look at the barrel twist and projectiles promoted along with it. There’s a lot of cynical commentary about marketing (aimed at Hornady mostly) but the fact is that their new products are very smartly designed and have absolutely raised the bar for some of the long-standing calibres. Efficient, accurate, competition proven and thoroughly successful in the field, easy to load, excellent factory ammunition (e.g. Precision Hunter). Compare the performance of Precision Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor to the traditional 6.5x55 factory ammo and you’ve got a great example of how lots of small incremental improvements add up to make a thoroughly superior product.

Contrast this to Sierra, who in their efforts to keep up with Hornady made an absolute dogs breakfast of the launch of the GameChanger bullets, screwing up the twist rate recommendations for the long-for-calibre bullets (e.g. 90 & 100gr 6mm), with a design that is fickle at best (putting in nicely) with the short bearing surface and very long ogive.

Who won the battle of coloured tips? Red or Green?

If you’re looking for a recent example of a cartridge that’s on a one way ride to redundancy, look at the 6.8 Western. There’s a reason Hornady has been so successful with new cartridges (and bullets, and getting rifle manufacturers to adopt the chamberings). Winchester & Browning probably should have considered why this is the case before they spent all that money designing, manufacturing and promoting a case that’s pretty much disappeared in 6 months. Go check out the availability of 6.8 Western related products… if you bought one of those in mid-2021 I’ll bet you’re wishing you got a .270 Winchester.

Thank you

I have 222, 250sav and 7 x 57. A few companies still chamber 222 and 7 x 57 but not many.

I read in a hunting book from culling days that the ammo handed out for 270w and 7 x 57 was too hard and didn't expand leading to poor kills. I think the same author had his mate driving deer up to Gulley heads where a few of them would empty 10 shot Enfield mags and poke the barrel into the snow for a cool down.

@Bill999 do you mean the westerner of the new SIG 277 fury. Both not the same but I know exactly what you mean about projectiles. the only thing is the newer ones usually need a higher twist rate and that is something 270s could've had for years, Same deal for one of my projects, 264 win mag. You will always hear me banging on about their twist rates. Its standard 1-9 from memory but a lot of the new projectiles need better than that as they are longer. They hype up the 6.5 man-bun as being able to beat it out past 400 as they can use the slipperier projectile even though they lose 2-300 fps. If the 264 had that it would mash it to bits.
400 is a long way for me I might add so I'm not worried. I'll take the extra horsepower up close.

Originally Posted by csmiffy

@Bill999 do you mean the westerner of the new SIG 277 fury. Both not the same but I know exactly what you mean about projectiles. the only thing is the newer ones usually need a higher twist rate and that is something 270s could've had for years, Same deal for one of my projects, 264 win mag. You will always hear me banging on about their twist rates. Its standard 1-9 from memory but a lot of the new projectiles need better than that as they are longer. They hype up the 6.5 man-bun as being able to beat it out past 400 as they can use the slipperier projectile even though they lose 2-300 fps. If the 264 had that it would mash it to bits.
400 is a long way for me I might add so I'm not worried. I'll take the extra horsepower up close.

I was under the impression that the 6.8 was the civi version without the two step case loaded to a lower pressure based on what a friend was harping on about how good they would be
I see where my folly was

I told him there was no need to wait when 270wsm exists already...... bar like you say the twist rates

one of my favorites I sadly think is pretty redundant is the 280rem/7mmexpress remington/7mm06
with 7mm08 and 280ai now basically more popular in every way

I’ll put my hand up for one. Even though I posses a rifle in said caliber, you would have to add the .260Rem. Like many others, it’s only handloading keeping it alive given the scarcity of factory ammunition.
What constantly surprises me, in this age of the latest and greatest, is how well the mighty .270Win still holds its own quite comfortably against all these fandangled new comers. And before ya’ll get your panties in a bind, I’m not saying it stands above them, it’s just that it’s still in the mix and not just by the skin of its teeth. It’s in there still duking it out a hundred years on!!

old calibers such as 6.5x55 for example arnt dead
the advantage to the newer equivalents 6.5cm 260rem etc is they are shorter and fit into a short action which makes for a more compact hunting rifle

performance wise they are so similar its not funny

as a handloader the modern calibers offer slightly cheaper shooting as they use slightly less powder for the same or even slightly better performance
if you get 10 or 20 extra rounds per tin of powder over the life of the rifle that accounts for a lot of savings

Originally Posted by Beavis

7.62x39 has become largely redundant in NZ

I hope not. Tossing up whether to sell the ammo or buy a decent rifle for it.
Looking more and more like the first option.
Got a jw103 which is good for cold bore plus one or two but the pencil barrel is no good for long plinking sessions

Originally Posted by Steve123

I hope not. Tossing up whether to sell the ammo or buy a decent rifle for it.
Looking more and more like the first option.
Got a jw103 which is good for cold bore plus one or two but the pencil barrel is no good for long plinking sessions

there are extremly cheep howa x39 barreled actions at 55six at the moment

It just comes down to what you like I suppose - I've had 7mm Rem mag, .280, .270 and I've fired a bunch of others - and some gave me more recoil than I was comfortable with, and the 7x57 never did that. - it wasn't something I wanted in my mind.
They all do the job if you're using a bullet for purpose - that's the only bit in the whole equation that does the 'dirty' - so then you're back to 'slow and heavy' vs 'fast and light' ............ and I prefer the latter for the hunting I do.

Those earlier cartridges were ex military numbers and had developed their rep on the battlefield - 6.5x54MS (+ Jap and Carcano), 6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57, .303, 30-40, 30-06, 8x57, .308 and dare I say it - .223 and joy of joys the .577 snider, .577-450 Martini and bunch of European numbers if you want to go back earlier.

And talking about the 25-20, my mate had a Win '92 in one of them and I watched him take out the best part of a mob of pigs with that ......... that was designed as a close range 'trappers' cartridge and that 'shootup' was a lesson to me.

The trend for modern high velocity cartridges came about with 'long range' shooting over in the States - and with the Duley's and some others here. So we saw supressors, muzzle brakes, weighted stocks to reduce recoil and super duper high power scopes with dial up's and computer programs so you could sling a bullet that far.
That's a whole nother game that I've witnessed - but I don't have the 'places' that would justify me getting into that ........... nor the dosh come to that.

Hunting's a sport - and we enjoy it in our own different ways ....................

Originally Posted by Bill999

there are extremly cheep howa x39 barreled actions at 55six at the moment

Yeah. No heavy barrels
and wrong time of year though. A standard profile cut to 16" would probably be ok though.......