Rem 700 SA VS LA

There has been a bit more chatter lately about running SA instead of LA to save weight.

I had a weigh up this arvo.....

These are only Remingtons but are a fair representation of a commonly used action for a custom build.

Both SA & LA with standard action, bolt, BTM metal, follower, spring, mag box & same brand alloy rail.

There is only 7/8", 22.22mm difference in length.

Here are the pics.

Rem 700 Short action.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...0SAVSLA006.jpg

Rem 700 Long action.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...0SAVSLA010.jpg

As you can see from the pics with those two actions there is a whole 85 grams in it.

The first time I weighed them I used a diffrent SA & the difference was 95 grams ......

Still not much no matter how you cut it.......

The McMillan stocks I have weighed in the past have been basically the same or the LA was lighter due to more stock material being removed...

Is it really worth the hassle of running a short/compromised round in a SA to save that much weight....

What is all the fuss about ???? :ORLY:

hmm food for thaught.

do remember that you're overall length will be longer with the same barrel length obviously with the LA, so essentially you get a longer barrel for nothing on the SA and the weight is further back toward you

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Originally Posted by Bill999

hmm food for thaught.

do remember that you're overall length will be longer with the same barrel length obviously with the LA, so essentially you get a longer barrel for nothing on the SA and the weight is further back toward you

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Yep absolutely a whole 7/8", 22.22 mm......

Do guys get upset about putting a suppressor on.........weight & length......

Welcome to custom rifles, a world of people getting really worked up about totally academic differences?

Greig, good shit!! very informative.

All depends what you want.................
Short actions for short action cases have shorter tubes so are way better ballanced an feel to hunt with with
long actions are good also for the bigger cases that need them SAUM WSM etc to me waste of space after doing it myself few time no benifits to doing so, even seated right out still have space wasted space to burn in a LA when can feed 3.2" OAL from short with mods instead of having 10mm+ gap to spare

Ballance of a hunting rifle is important, long actions, heavy tubes, light stocks are good combo for muzzle heavy heap of shit that spins on your shoulder when in sling since it wants wants to lie flat, get caught up in the scrum when bush bashing through an after awhile you just want to leave it there. thats at extream end tho, Say a edge stock, rem700 L/A, 26'' an up tube in number 5 an up an you have that combo decribed

Go to a short action, egde stock,700 S/A, 24-25" number 3 an you have a very well ballance hunting rifle that will do the all round well enough to take game out to 1000m an sort out stuff fast an easy in the bush also

Its all a compromise an personal choice at end of day, thers always options or ways around weight.
What has brought all this weigh up on?:)

So a short vs long action is 90 gram average and around one inch difference in barrel length for same overall finished length
. No.real world difference. A bit like the fact most people have one foot longer than the other (slightly) yet what difference does it make or what difference is.noticed when variables underfoot exceed the influence the difference.has? I.e in shooting and hunting natural.variables make the argument pointless or you go for the simple option of if you have a rifle with a finished length one inch longer than a sa equivalent you just hunt somewhere where the scrub grows one inch higher from the ground.....
The difference is pointless

Then why do short actions exist? And why have short mags become so popular?

The convenience of reloading with a shorter bolt would be more advantage for faster follow up shot. Marketting is a funny thing also...people still buy mcdonalds...

We are always searching for that little bit of improvement I guess. And I'll take a inch shorter rifle any day of the week. The short mags also have more barrel length from the case not being so far down the barrel, so effectively a short mag will have 2" more barrel at the same overall length as a long action.

The Browning A Bolt with short action and 60% bolt lift is not to be sneezed at least in 223.That dude in Nelson's cartridges weigh more than a short action anyway.:thumbsup:

I watched a few short action's on our feild shoot choke up more than a few times,prove's your point about marketing Hori.

Hunters would be one of the easiest groups to market to i reckon "what would.you do if you were too slow with a follow up shot to.put that once in a lifetime stag on the ground for keeps and it was lost in the bush?"(or something of similar effect) Is a popular phrase....:P
Bit like upselling people with lifejackets "how much do you value your families safety?" Etc

To add
I think short actions are an advantage in lower recoiling calibers where disruption from recoil is less making faster reloading for fast follow up more of an advantage for typical shooters (although experienced people can do this with higher recoiling calibres) the advantages are over professed at times and advantage for.real world general.shooting hunting would be extremely hard to qualify/quantify in a way to.convince a realist as myself.

A real advantage would be electric ignition allowing ammo to be stacked in the barrel and fired consecutivley as i saw on one of those modern weapon programes but then we would argue about variation of time in barrel between first and last shots ....

You have the best of both worlds with your rifles there horihunter... A short actioned long action... A.k.a. Tikka T3...:D

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Originally Posted by The Claw

You have the best of both worlds with your rifles there horihunter... A short actioned long action... A.k.a. Tikka T3...:D

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Didnt i hear or a 7mm saum on a tikka action recently Claw?:P

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Originally Posted by horihunter

Didnt i hear or a 7mm saum on a tikka action recently Claw?:P

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I wouldn't do something that silly... My brother however...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Claw

I wouldn't do something that silly... My brother however...

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Who sold him the parts....lol

ok my 2cents

I once brught a SA tikka lite ,wow nice and light to carry ,,the stock even made a nice boNNNNNG noise when i bumped it on a twig,,but to carry it i had to hold it buy the stock or sling it...

Once i landed dads husky 06 i realised why it took him so long to part with it.

I can hold it buy the scope,
yes my big bootu fingers fit between the scope and action.
Its the equal to carring the shopping bags for the wife.:wtfsmilie:

So its a bit heaver then the tikka was,

but hear is the secret to not having to worry about your gun been heavy

1st
Take a dump b4 you leave the hut for most its a good 500g load.

2nd
dont bother taking loo roll you have allready had a dump

3rd
for extended trips take a gadget mate, good chance he has lots sox for future dumps.

conflict may happen with the extended trips,, advise your mate your saving his wait because his gun is to heavy:thumbs:

Why bother looking at the practical side of this? Its mostly irrelevant. If you want to pay someone to talk to a gunsmith for you, build a cannon that cost $5.00 every time you pull the trigger, shoehorn a good size .338 into a short action, get the cheapest gun off the shop wall or anything in between then do what you want while you can. :thumbsup:
Want rules. Embrace it.

the other thing about long actions is they hold long cased bullets, yes the action is only 22mm longer but so is the bullet so it extends 22 more mm into the same length barrel too that is 22mm further away from your shoulder

so it makes it two inches OAL longer if you are using the long action to its potential, compare the 7saum with the 7stw or 7rum
the long bullets take up alot more of the barrel than the short

So what brought this on Greg?
There has been to talk of long vs short on here lately. . . . . . . Just some different cases popped up:)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by sneeze

Why bother looking at the practical side of this? Its mostly irrelevant. If you want to pay someone to talk to a gunsmith for you, build a cannon that cost $5.00 every time you pull the trigger, shoehorn a good size .338 into a short action, get the cheapest gun off the shop wall or anything in between then do what you want while you can. :thumbsup:
Want rules. Embrace it.

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Heh on reflection the obvious answer to that question is because you want to ......:D

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Originally Posted by tui_man2

So what brought this on Greg?
There has been to talk of long vs short on here lately. . . . . . . Just some different cases popped up:)

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Nothing much really :)
I know people that have used LA rounds in SA rifles to save weight in the past & when this question popped up on one of my threads I thought I would look into it further.

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Originally Posted by kimjon

Hi Greg

Would it work in a SA rem700 if you took the bolt out to extract the round? Do you have to take the bolt out of the LA to get the round out anyway?

kj

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I had already considered it as I have a test 30-06 ai imp in a SA myself.

I thought there would me more weight difference myself so I posted the results I gathered :)

It's not just weight tho. . .

Balance of rifles is also important, long action is long case an that means long barrel so get the speed so the balance is getting further an further forward

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Balance is far more important than weight IMHO... Long vs short on the same case isn't as much of difference... but it will effect is a bit on balance

Long vs short with say a 7mmSAUM vs a 280AI there is a lot of difference with balance, The rifles starts way back with the SAUM compared to the 280AI so you can either have light and well balanced with the same effective barrel length or can go a longer barrel for the same balance ... with the down fall of less in the mag for the SAUM

Putting two actions on the scales is only a small part of why I went SA... Oh and mine was a Mod 7 so I believe its lighter again :)

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Originally Posted by tui_man2

It's not just weight tho. . .

Balance of rifles is also important, long action is long case an that means long barrel so get the speed so the balance is getting further an further forward

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So going by that anyone who puts a suppressor on a rifle is completely mad.....

An inch or so near the middle of a rifle is nothing compared to sticking a suppressor on the end of it.....

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

So going by that anyone who puts a suppressor on a rifle is completely mad.....

An inch or so near the middle of a rifle is nothing compared to sticking a suppressor on the end of it.....

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yup mad... unless you want to save your ears then hanging it as close as possible to the action is the idea so it upsets the balance the least amount so a short case in a short action makes it less of an issue ;)

Personally my light rig has no can or brake :)

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

So going by that anyone who puts a suppressor on a rifle is completely mad.....

An inch or so near the middle of a rifle is nothing compared to sticking a suppressor on the end of it.....

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Something in the water up there? Or heat wave??:D

Shorter lighter rifle a small light can does bugger all to up set the balance an like brakes they have there uses an not always on the rifle. Shooting technique also helps soak up some recoil.

It's like putting v8s or screaming jap turbo motors in light cars makes it to be a weapon that you can't wait to take out now a huge lump with a big donk that you know it will do the job but will be a pig to get there an you don't look forward to using it that much:rolleyes:

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The whole point is guys are getting all excited about the weight & length savings of a SA over a LA.....

Comparing 7mmSaum to 7mmRum in length & having an effectively longer barrel with a short action by 22mm + the extra length gained from a shorter case...etc

Then talking about that effecting the balance of a rifle......

You are talking about 80-100 grams & less than 1" at most in effectively the middle ish of the rifle where it makes the least difference...

It isn't even worth talking about..... let alone getting excited about it......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

The whole point is guys are getting all excited about the weight & length savings of a SA over a LA.....

Comparing 7mmSaum to 7mmRum in length & having an effectively longer barrel with a short action by 22mm + the extra length gained from a shorter case...etc

Then talking about that effecting the balance of a rifle......

You are talking about 80-100 grams & less than 1" at most in effectively the middle ish of the rifle where it makes the least difference...

It isn't even worth talking about..... let alone getting excited about it......

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less than one inch.... how do you figure that...the but of the rifle stays on your shoulder, length of pull stays the same.... action + gain in case length is well over 1" (remembering the effective length of barrel starts at the rifling)... Its all added to the end in real terms not the middle :)

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Originally Posted by leathel

less than one inch.... how do you figure that...the but of the rifle stays on your shoulder, length of pull stays the same.... action + gain in case length is well over 1" (remembering the effective length of barrel starts at the rifling)... Its all added to the end in real terms not the middle :)

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Sorry should have put in the same overall length....:)

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Sorry should have put in the same overall length....:)

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with a shorter effective length of barrel as the trigger you want in the same place...action is longer...case is longer rifling starts later.... :yaeh am not durnk:

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Originally Posted by leathel

with a shorter effective length of barrel as the trigger you want in the same place...action is longer...case is longer rifling starts later.... :yaeh am not durnk:

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Case is bigger..... more powder.....more speed......more recoil....more power....bring it on....:yaeh am not durnk::):):thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Case is bigger..... more powder.....more speed......more recoil....more power....bring it on....:yaeh am not durnk::):):thumbsup:

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Forgot one. . . ... . .more impractical hunting rifle:o

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Can fit a pretty big case in a short action now to.

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

Case is bigger..... more powder.....more speed......more recoil....more power....bring it on....:yaeh am not durnk::):):thumbsup:

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But if you just want a std sort of a rifle I come back to the 7mmSAUM Vs The 280AI...

Then you have the Fatso Vs Rem Mag etc etc

Yes if you want the biggest baddest it will always be better to go long.... but you can gets some pretty effective rounds in a short if shorter OAL is what you want... how much power do you need :dizzy:

Firing a heavy mag with a big bell end on it using fucking earmuffs hunting or should I say shooting is to me ridiculous - I have seen the light.

For a laugh an just to see Greg, post a photo off your edge balanced on its balance point, an ill do same when I get home tonight

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Originally Posted by tui_man2

to get to the real root of this should we post pics of our... and get it done with?
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Did you mean this?:P

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Originally Posted by tui_man2

For a laugh an just to see Greg, post a photo off your edge balanced on its balance point, an ill do same when I get home tonight

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I fail to see what this has to do with this thread....

I was talking about the difference in weight or lack of it between a Remington short & long action as I was surprised so figured others would be as well...... nothing more, nothing less.....:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

There has been a bit more chatter lately about running SA instead of LA to save weight.

I had a weigh up this arvo.....

These are only Remingtons but are a fair representation of a commonly used action for a custom build.

Both SA & LA with standard action, bolt, BTM metal, follower, spring, mag box & same brand alloy rail.

There is only 7/8", 22.22mm difference in length.

Here are the pics.

Rem 700 Short action.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...0SAVSLA006.jpg

Rem 700 Long action.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...0SAVSLA010.jpg

As you can see from the pics with those two actions there is a whole 85 grams in it.

The first time I weighed them I used a diffrent SA & the difference was 95 grams ......

Still not much no matter how you cut it.......

The McMillan stocks I have weighed in the past have been basically the same or the LA was lighter due to more stock material being removed...

Is it really worth the hassle of running a short/compromised round in a SA to save that much weight....

What is all the fuss about ???? :ORLY:

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