Repeat until patches come out clean

I know many folk on here tend to keep the barrel cleaning to a minimum, but lets say you want to take the bore back to bare metal and get all the powder out. In my case they are all chrome-moly rather than stainless. A bronze brush and No.9 doesn't seem to cut it for me. I can run the brush through a dozen times and then clean out with a patch and it always comes out pretty dark, no matter how many times I repeat this sequence. Same with JBs, always produces a black patch.

( The copper I have no trouble with, removing it with aqueous ammonia. This clears it pretty quickly and has never caused me a problem as long as all traces are removed once the copper is all out.)

Whenever I read articles on bore cleaning they always involve a solvent swabbing and (usually) brushing sequence, repeat 3-4 times and then miraculously the final patch comes out clean, job done.


What are members views on this please? Is this material off the bronze brush ?
What about with the JBs - eventually steel off the bore rather than powder residue ?

I'm no gun geek , but the gun geek that sold me the JBs told me that you will always get a black jag ! Something like the pressure turns it black not the fowling .

I'll bit. Why the hell would the pressure turn it black?

Don't no why ? His words (gun geek) . Maybe it's like braso turns black when you rub ?

When barrels are blued they are blued on the inside as well as the outside ,when you look through the barrel you cant see it but it is there . I have sectioned Rem mod 7 barrels off police training rifles that have fired 23000+ rounds which still had blue in the non driving corner of the rifling . This is what is staining your patch

Two words Boretech Eliminator, As for pressure turning the patch black:wtfsmilie:

Autosole, Bronze brush wrapped in a patch, bit of autosole, 100 strokes, then I just spray some brakeclean down there to get rid of left overs, followed by a wet patch of kroil then patch till clean, I hate cleaning rifles this seems to be quickest and works I just do it when she starts spraying them

In the interests of scientific endeavour I gave the bore a thrashing with grey scotchbrite to clear the powder residue and then went back to using the bronze brush (still black) and JBs (still black ) so I'm inclined to think that the colour is material being removed from the bronze brush or base metal. There may still be bluing in the barrel hiding in the cut of the rifling but what hasn't been removed in the last 50 cleans seems unlikely to still be coming out now. Could also be carbon so I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has a method for telling when the powder fouling is all out and patch colour is then metal residue. Incidentally, this is all independent of solvent type, tried quite a few with the same result.

I am using KG products - Carbon cleaner to start on patch then again on one brush, clean patch, patch with de-greaser, two more clean patches and they are coming out clean.

With a full clean i will then do the copper cleaner with the same sequence but increase the brush (bronze, yes i go through a lot of them) to 5-6 runs.

I usually finish with a lubricant in the barrel.

Over 2000 rounds down my .260 kreiger chrome moly barrel and patches come out clean - they have from day one come to think of it.

It may be a carbon ring build up in the front of the chamber , there is a lot of stuff on the net about it Google Carbon ring in barrel .
My blued barrels always show black no matter how much JB I use , my stainless ones come clean realy quickly

Id run out of patches if I put them thru till they were clean on my old CZs blued barrel, my stainless trueflight UM seems to get clean in 1/10 of the patches

mabe there is something to this bluing theory, mabe its just a reaction between the steel and the cleaner?

Cleaned the barrel on the BP 45/70. BP solvent and a jug of boiling water, few swabs thru and oil while still warm, you will shoot this jacket stuff!

Bluing can be rust, depending on the process.

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Originally Posted by Druid

When barrels are blued they are blued on the inside as well as the outside ,when you look through the barrel you cant see it but it is there . I have sectioned Rem mod 7 barrels off police training rifles that have fired 23000+ rounds which still had blue in the non driving corner of the rifling . This is what is staining your patch

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Are you sure? It is a corrosive process and you normally plug the barrel to stop rusting in the bore

Bluing is a passivation process in which steel is partially protected against rust, and is named after the blue-black appearance of the resulting protective finish. True gun bluing is an electrochemical conversion coating resulting from an oxidizing chemical reaction with iron on the surface selectively forming magnetite (Fe3O4), the black oxide of iron. Black oxide provides minimal protection against corrosion, unless also treated with a water-displacing oil to reduce wetting and galvanic action. A distinction can be made between traditional bluing and some other more modern black oxide coatings, although bluing is a subset of black oxide coatings.
In comparison, rust, the red oxide of iron (Fe2O3), undergoes an extremely large volume change upon hydration; as a result, the oxide easily flakes off causing the typical reddish rusting away of iron. "Cold", "Hot", "Rust Blue" and "Fume Blue" are oxidizing processes simply referred to as bluing.
"Cold" bluing is generally a selenium dioxide based compound that colors steel black, or more often a very dark gray. It is a difficult product to apply evenly, offers minimal protection and is generally best used for small fast repair jobs and touch-ups.

Link to full details

Bluing (steel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by Maca49

Are you sure? It is a corrosive process and you normally plug the barrel to stop rusting in the bore

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I am very sure , I am talking about blue , not phosphating or any of the other coatings
Modern arms companies dont have the time to plug both ends of a barrel , same as they dont have the time to clean barrels after proof testing them , because time costs money , If you ever buy a new rifle , run a tight patch with JB paste on it through before you shoot it and have a look .

the aparently new wyndim ar15 sitting in the Hunting and fishing had a nice ring of carbon around the primer pocket, but really who knows whos been playing with it behind the scenes, the h&f owner swore black and blue that it was brand new tho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toby

Bluing is a passivation process in which steel is partially protected against rust, and is named after the blue-black appearance of the resulting protective finish. True gun bluing is an electrochemical conversion coating resulting from an oxidizing chemical reaction with iron on the surface selectively forming magnetite (Fe3O4), the black oxide of iron. Black oxide provides minimal protection against corrosion, unless also treated with a water-displacing oil to reduce wetting and galvanic action. A distinction can be made between traditional bluing and some other more modern black oxide coatings, although bluing is a subset of black oxide coatings.
In comparison, rust, the red oxide of iron (Fe2O3), undergoes an extremely large volume change upon hydration; as a result, the oxide easily flakes off causing the typical reddish rusting away of iron. "Cold", "Hot", "Rust Blue" and "Fume Blue" are oxidizing processes simply referred to as bluing.
"Cold" bluing is generally a selenium dioxide based compound that colors steel black, or more often a very dark gray. It is a difficult product to apply evenly, offers minimal protection and is generally best used for small fast repair jobs and touch-ups.

Link to full details

Bluing (steel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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FFS Toby when did you get you BSc? If those were my instructions for bluing it would never happen! I think it was hot water with chemicals in a tank long enough to take the barrel and some heat underneath and keep watching. Oil it when finished

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Originally Posted by Maca49

FFS Toby when did you get you BSc? If those were my instructions for bluing it would never happen! I think it was hot water with chemicals in a tank long enough to take the barrel and some heat underneath and keep watching. Oil it when finished

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BCs? I just googled that for the thing about rusting

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Originally Posted by Bill999

the aparently new wyndim ar15 sitting in the Hunting and fishing had a nice ring of carbon around the primer pocket, but really who knows whos been playing with it behind the scenes, the h&f owner swore black and blue that it was brand new tho

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I would be very dubious about buying a rifle that was not test fired by the factory , I have seen one new in the box rifle that had missed being test fired and the barrel was screwed into the action finger tight , not a good look

The following is interesting reading: Bore Brushing--How Much is Too Much?

Keeping in mind that all these guys will be using stainless barrels that are ultra-match grade lapped. It seems that the solvent & patch (brushless) cleaning regimes only apply to barrels in this category and even then I don't think all the powder is removed, enough to restore accuracy for a further so many rounds. I'm still trying to compile the information on chrome-moly barrels.
Some background info: I've got Douglas and Kreiger here, so not bad bores by any stretch and they should clean up as well as any other CM. The reason I want to strip them right out is for shooting original Barnes X - I've found they group a whole lot better when shot from clean.

Thanks Guys for your feedback on this one.

Have now run 30x patches with JBs through each of the barrels, following on from what seemed like endless bronze brushing. Patches still always dark black after a few strokes. Tried JIF as an alternative. Patches very light grey. JIF either isn't removing the same amount or more likely has a white pigment that JBs lacks so that the colour is masked. There looks to be something in what Munsey said in that JBs colours up very easily.

Anyway it is easily checked by looking at the muzzle on the chrome-moly barrels. Despite all the cleaning, both bores just inside the muzzle are still dark grey - it looks to be bluing as Druid indicated, polished up to a mirror finish - and probably is dark the whole way down, I don't have a borescope to see. If it was really back to base metal it would be bare metal silver shiny. The bluing service I use does not plug the barrels. If I ever get another CM barrel from new I'll look to keep the bore in the white as a visual aid to cleaning.

It seems clean is never actually clean, just somewhere on the continuum. Is the powder all gone and just bluing left; I can't tell.
What I do think I am safe in saying is that the cleaning regime description I kicked this post off with where patches come out clean may not be because the bore is in fact clean, just at the limit of the cleaning method being used. I now need to find the minimum cleaning routine to bring each bore back to a level where I get another 30-40 shot accuracy but I won't be looking for clean patches to tell if the job is done anymore.

If you look at the thread on the Heuston Warehouse you will see that the rifle that shot what are probably the best groups ever was cleaned with JB . I have been using a combination of Hoppes no 9 and JB for over 15 years in all my rifles and will stay with that , I never use a brush just a tight patch , My blued barrels come up black , my stainless ones dont . There is some thought that barrels shoot best when the blue has been worn off the driving surfaces .

JBs bore paste is a polish. If used properly it will ALWAYS come out black, You can polish the rifling right out of your barrel (will take forever though)and it will still come out black. . Same with auto sol. Its taking a minute layer off your bore each time. Patches will often come out black after a bronze brushing as well sometimes from contamination/old carbon residue etc in the winds of the brush.If you are looking for your barrel to shine like steel that has just been cut then you are wasting your time . Heat and pressure has changed that for good, Stop obsessing, stop reading the internet and go and shoot stuff.

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Originally Posted by Puffin

Thanks Guys for your feedback on this one.

Have now run 30x patches with JBs through each of the barrels, following on from what seemed like endless bronze brushing. Patches still always dark black after a few strokes. Tried JIF as an alternative. Patches very light grey. JIF either isn't removing the same amount or more likely has a white pigment that JBs lacks so that the colour is masked. There looks to be something in what Munsey said in that JBs colours up very easily.

Anyway it is easily checked by looking at the muzzle on the chrome-moly barrels. Despite all the cleaning, both bores just inside the muzzle are still dark grey - it looks to be bluing as Druid indicated, polished up to a mirror finish - and probably is dark the whole way down, I don't have a borescope to see. If it was really back to base metal it would be bare metal silver shiny. The bluing service I use does not plug the barrels. If I ever get another CM barrel from new I'll look to keep the bore in the white as a visual aid to cleaning.

It seems clean is never actually clean, just somewhere on the continuum. Is the powder all gone and just bluing left; I can't tell.
What I do think I am safe in saying is that the cleaning regime description I kicked this post off with where patches come out clean may not be because the bore is in fact clean, just at the limit of the cleaning method being used. I now need to find the minimum cleaning routine to bring each bore back to a level where I get another 30-40 shot accuracy but I won't be looking for clean patches to tell if the job is done anymore.

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You gotta use white patches to start with?

Who cares if it's clean. If it's not shooting badly or full of water, why waste time trying to "clean" it?

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Originally Posted by gimp

Who cares if it's clean. If it's not shooting badly or full of water, why waste time trying to "clean" it?

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Agree with ya Gimp, there is 100 ways to skin a cat, same could be said cleaning a firearm, but as said as long as she is clean and shooting good (whocares).

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Originally Posted by Tussock

Got heavy fishing nylon?

Males a decent pull through in a pinch. Just tie the patch on. Then you have eliminated the rod etc.

Ever had moly coat down it?

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Heavy nylon and trace tube protector. Same result. No scraping of barrel or crown.