Thread: Restrictions and conditions on an 'A' Category 50BMG?

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Leaving aside the way you seem to be implying that people who don't want their guns registered with no legal authority are likely to be murderers...

It's about principle - if it's fine for the police to act outside the law when they think something is for a good reason, where do you draw the line? Is it ok for them to tamper with evidence because they're pretty sure the accused did it? Or lie about their actions because the truth is inconvenient? Some of them do that too, are you saying that's ok because they're police? Hey, maybe it's ok for police to shoot someone just because they think they might be a bad person? After all, if you don't give them a reason to think that then you have n)othing to worry about.

The law is there for a reason and the police are subject to it for a reason too, it's not up to them to change it or break it when it suits them.

Sums it up perfectly, its not law, and you are actually upholding the law by refusing. If the law changes an serial nos are required then ok we supply them. Read George Orwells 1984 for a lession in death of civil liberties by a thousand cuts

They haven't found the stop/go murder weapon, so can't really claim it's linked to the murder via the serial number. They just wanted to eliminate them forensically, but I get the impression he'd stopped cooperating by that point.

Definitely found to be the killer. But I doubt that the serial number made the conviction since they didn't have the murder weapon to prove it was the same rifle. They just demonstrated that is likely to be the same ie not beyond reasonable doubt. It is after all a very common single shot .22. The other circumstantial evidence looks overwhelming. For the type of murder the guy could have used a crossbow if he didn't have a gun.

Very rare type of incident in NZ since they didn't know each other. Regardless of what you do including logging serial numbers, paperwork, background checks, interviews etc there is always a chance that someone will get through the net. Such is life. The only other way to reduce the risk further of such a thing happening is to prohibit personal ownership of firearms. Ultimately I think that would be the only thing to keep people like systolic happy.

Originally Posted by 300CALMAN

The only other way to reduce the risk further of such a thing happening is to prohibit personal ownership of firearms. Ultimately I think that would be the only thing to keep people like systolic happy.

Fuck off. I've got shitloads of guns and don't have a problem with other people owing them. Stop being a wanker.

I just don't have a problem with the cops knowing what the serial numbers are, anymore than I don't have a problem knowing what my car number plate is.

Probably 70% of my guns are on my pistol and collectors licences, so the cops already have the numbers. They can have the others too if they want them.

Originally Posted by systolic

Fuck off. I've got shitloads of guns and don't have a problem with other people owing them. Stop being a wanker.

I just don't have a problem with the cops knowing what the serial numbers are, anymore than I don't have a problem knowing what my car number plate is.

Probably 70% of my guns are on my pistol and collectors licences, so the cops already have the numbers. They can have the others too if they want them.

Honestly that's fine, but you can't expect others to be okay with it too, just because you are.
When I have a safe inspection and they ask to see guns serial numbers/cal's etc I will only show them anything that's registered on my E/B/C and nothing more on principle.
I have NO legal requirement and the fact they act like I do is the reason that I am not willing.

Originally Posted by Jexla

Honestly that's fine, but you can't expect others to be okay with it too, just because you are.
When I have a safe inspection and they ask to see guns serial numbers/cal's etc I will only show them anything that's registered on my E/B/C and nothing more on principle.
I have NO legal requirement and the fact they act like I do is the reason that I am not willing.

Where have I ever said that I'm not okay with people not wanting to list all their serial numbers?

Didn't I post a couple of hours ago how to AVOID doing just that?

Originally Posted by systolic

Where have I ever said that I'm not okay with people not wanting to list all their serial numbers?

Didn't I post a couple of hours ago how to AVOID doing just that?

You did, but in your post you also implied we would do it out of paranoia and to help us potentially get off a murder charge.

Originally Posted by systolic

Fuck off. I've got shitloads of guns and don't have a problem with other people owing them. Stop being a wanker.

Calm down, you can disagree with someone, someone can disagree with you.

You must be a young guy, I admire your trust, they wore it out a long time ago with me!!!

I'm more worried they have my address listed somewhere.

Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

One of the articles on the stop/go murder also said that they linked the guy to it through the serial number of the rifle, which had been recorded during a licence renewal

Ok that's 1 case of were it has actually helped.... For the other 99.8% of us I believe it's a invasion of privacy purely on the grounds of guilty until proven innocent which is their status quo at the moment!!

Originally Posted by Rock river arms hunter

Ok that's 1 case of were it has actually helped.... For the other 99.8% of us I believe it's a invasion of privacy purely on the grounds of guilty until proven innocent which is their status quo at the moment!!

Yes, my only point was that it appears the Police have been building a register for some time. My personal opinion is that since it is not a legal requirement the vetting officer (or arms officer) should make it clear that it is voluntary to give serial numbers of A-cat firearms, not imply it is a legal requirement.

Quote from NZ Herald "The crown allege that it was a bullet fired from a weapon that Winders was registered as owning when he went for his firearms licence in 2008."
Taiaroa shooting: microscope key in revealing rifle's history - National - NZ Herald News

From reading that, the serial number should have given them a little bit of circumstantial evidence at best, at worst its saying that any one of potentially hundreds of other rifles could have been the one.

Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

Yes, my only point was that it appears the Police have been building a register for some time. My personal opinion is that since it is not a legal requirement the vetting officer (or arms officer) should make it clear that it is voluntary to give serial numbers of A-cat firearms, not imply it is a legal requirement.

Quote from NZ Herald "The crown allege that it was a bullet fired from a weapon that Winders was registered as owning when he went for his firearms licence in 2008."
Taiaroa shooting: microscope key in revealing rifle's history - National - NZ Herald News

From reading that, the serial number should have given them a little bit of circumstantial evidence at best, at worst its saying that any one of potentially hundreds of other rifles could have been the one.

"Murphy told the court it not only had the same shipment details but after analysing its serial number, they also had the same format and distinguishing features including marks from when it was pressed into the metal."

How could they compare format and pressing marks of the serial number when they never recovered the firearm he owned? Did they analyse and record his rifle to that level of detail when it was imported? As you say, all it seems to show is that it could be a rifle from that manufacturer around that time. Not to mention that if his claim that it was stolen was true then whether it was the rifle he had owned or not wouldn't mean it was him that used it.

Sounds flaky as hell based on what has been reported, presumably either the media are leaving things out or the other evidence must have been a lot stronger than that.

I am myself against an a cat gun registry. However ,what does the police do when they recover stolen property and find a rifle that has not been declared stolen or for which no serial number is referenced anywhere?

Maybe a solution would be that each a cat owner have its own private and personal registry, mandatory . Police or AO authorised to look at it and take notes but not being able to seize it unless authorised by a judge during a criminal investigation.
Also list of entries and exit of guns in that same little booklet. Of course that booklet would have to be well hidden so occasional thief does not put his hand on it.

Also when implementing the system or renewing the licence, the person doing the check could simply look ( not write down)at guns serials numbers compared to what is in the owners note book and put his signature at the bottom of the page.
It would be the cheapest form of registry, with the gun owners still having a good trust in the ( police and the policing ) system and the other way around.
And that way when a gun is stolen, it would be easy for the owner to report it with its serial number. I know it does not stop a bad guy from grinding the serial number, but a lot of guns recovered still have their serial number visible.