Also second this everything works, just shoot things with the right projectile in the right placeQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
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Also second this everything works, just shoot things with the right projectile in the right placeQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
Its good to see youve started with the scope. Theres no doubt that VX 5 will cover it all and do very well.
It sounds as if you want one rifle to do both “ bush and mountain hunting”.
For south island bush up to 22” is fine if you dont put a suppressor on it. Youll want the length to give enough velocity for the long shots on the tops. With a single all round rifle your max range will be about 300m in NZ South Is conditions.
Regarding choice of rifle, i suggest getting a new one rather than second hand. They are still ffordable if you only buy one and you know someone else hasnt dicked around with it. NZ hunting usually involves getting it wet, often muddy, full of leaves and windblown sand, frozen, knocked about a bit. So your stainless idea is good. A synthetic stock is best, carbon if you can afford it. Get a mainstream brand, not something unique and not the latest never heard if it before or semi custom brand. The standard rifles to compare all others to are the Tikka T3 and the Sako 85 which both have the simple rugged bombproof design features you need in NZ.
I would start with a bullet weight between 120gr up to about 180 or 200gr max, with a diameter of between .24 and .31 with a velocity of between 2700fps and 3200fps somewhere.......
I know, I know that is pretty much every centrefire in the range. A bit like saying I need an SUV, what would you suggest and getting between a Jimney to a F350.... But what ever you pick, I expect if it is not in that band, then it wont be far out of being capable of what you want. Try a few, see what you like the feel of. To be serious and honest, the one that is best will be the one that you get the best accuracy from. Everything is a balance / trade off.
More weight = less recoil but heavier to carry versus less weight = easier carry but more recoil,
Bigger bullet + higher velocity = more recoil, but more carried and transferred energy on impact
Bigger recoil can mean more flinch = a potential miss and a bigger hole in the dirt beside the animal instead of in it....
My personal choice would usually be 308. Not because of any perceived shortfall of any other calibre, as I see them as all much of the same but different. But because of accuracy. Accuracy comes from practise. Practise comes from sending rounds down range (ouyt there doing it to use an unpopular phrase..) That is expensive at $5 per round / $100 per pack for the latest and greatest ammo out....but at $2 or less, practise becomes more affordable and 308 is generally one of the calibres for which there are cheaper 'practise' ammos available. If you dont want to use cheap mil surp ammo in your flash rifle, use it in one that is not as flash. Practise with any rifle counts, including rimfire....
Remember the old motor racing saying " to finish first, first you must finish"....That has a translation into 'shooter talk' To have your food to hit the table, first you must hit your food"....It wont matter how big your bullet is if you miss.
And best of all, enjoy hunting for a new rifle....
So far we have votes for...
223
243
25/06
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5 PRC
270
7mm08
280ai
7mm Rem Mag
308
30-06
300wsm
338 Lapua
45/70
@Steven1 I hope we narrowed your selection for you!
+1 270 shitter :thumbsup:
To add to Tim’s tradeoff analysis above:
A Heavier rifle is generally easier to shoot well.
And …
Recoil depends in the ratio of bullet weight to rifle weight (and powder charge of course :) ).
So, you will not be able to get moderate recoil from a light rifle and a heavy bullet.
The idea of selecting an approximate bullet weight first is a good one. Unless you want a heavy rifle > 4kg all up, you will probably want to limit your bullet weight to about 140-150gr if shooting unsuppressed.
Maybe, certainly thought provoking if you have time, and it has to be noted that a lot of guys on here a building a new rifle every week, it seems quite hard to make a choice. Very nice problem to have tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
Big safe and one of each. Job done?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pommy
Remember to get a .22 for practice too!
Undoubtedly gonna be a game of trade offs then throw in the issue of some hard to find reloading components as well.
I'm quite sorted for loading 308 and 30 06 so think I'll see what suitable rifle options there are keeping in mind that the occasional longer shot may present itself.( Hence the preference for unsuppressed and longer barrel)
Not a fan of long range hunting. 350m will be my absolute max with the above mentioned calibers knowing their and my limitations. I much rather not take a shot than end up wounding an animal. Don't see much skill in long range hunting either
280ai and 7mmwsm also appeals to me due to better wind deflection,decent enough speed, good retained energy and reasonable recoil but that will be a project for later. 162gr eldx's seem unattainable at the moment which is also bit of a passion killer.
Wait what? You have a 30-06 and are limiting yourself to 350m? Go load up some 178gr ELD-X and you're not going to have problems with wind in much less than an F5 hurricane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven1
I'm with Ryan. What a dumb thread.
Sold rifles before coming to NZ so planning to start afresh in the near future. Used to shoot 180's and was real good in windy conditions. That said the longer action is most likely going to add extra weight thats why the balance tips towards 308 but will shop around to see what rifles are available. Have shot targets out to 1.1km with them but for hunting I'd limit myself to about 350 knowing I can make decent first shot placements consistently
Now wait a minute, there is one calibre on that list that is conspicuous in its absence: the trusty .222
Legend has it that 89% of deer cullers used a .222 with great success. Some may consider this to not be a suitable deer rifle, but hear me out...
Threads like these only become superfluous (though remain both interesting and contentious) because of the lack of methodology used to arrive at conclusions, and are weighed mostly upon experiences and opinions. Of course one would not discount the value of experience, but experiences vary and it makes conclusions too variable and somewhat unreliable in some respects.
We could approach the question with a different method, which is already been alluded to; using the science of ballistics and the criteria of bullet weight and velocity. Select by way of known research, a minimum bullet weight, a maximum excess weight, and the minimum velocity required for that weight range, and bullet construction, to be effective. The wonders of the interweb would soon reveal a variety of calibres that all meet the given criteria. It would make choice of rifle less limiting as a result, and remain interesting.
If you can only have one rifle for NZ hunting then the .308W is the best all-rounder preferably with the 1:10 twist rate. My humble opinion but my personal favourite is the mighty 7x57.
Hang on
You want to shoot unsupressed to a max of 350.
And no further?
Give the man a 6.5x55 or 25-06
260rem is the only correct answer
Wrong, the real men used .303 :ORLY:Quote:
Originally Posted by yeah_na_missed
Still do...Quote:
Originally Posted by caberslash
Would love to see statistics of where most newly made/commercial .303 ends up.Quote:
Originally Posted by timattalon
Suspect Canada/NZ/Oz would be top 3 in that order with the UK coming behind all of them, just like everything else :o
I'll take a few.... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by caberslash
who still makes a rifle chambered for the old .303 brit???? other than possibly in a custom break open,and I imagine they be few n far between.
I think Ruger were still making them in the No. 1
In my opinion the best caliber is the one your mates shoot. That way if you ever run out of ammo you can "borrow" some from them [emoji6]
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Bumblefoot and I were drooling over one that was being imported to NZ a few months ago, Italian made from memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
GPM.
It was a Uberti Courtney Stalking Rifle an a High Wall falling block action. Priced at $3,000.00 though and sold out.
GPM.
Yup; I was tempted! But I decided that it was too nice to hunt with and I couldn't really justify 3k with all the work I still have to do (and pay for!) on the property. I'm actually happier that I bought my new/old girl! It suits me to the ground ;)
Actually; a mate of mine in Oz just bought a 25/303 on a Mauser 98 action
Attachment 199363
Attachment 199364
If you are a reloader, then this is your era (current shortages accepted) with modern projectiles and powders enabling all "the old cartridges" to fully reach their potential .
. Making darlings like the x57s the equal of anything - including the Crudmoors, wsms and the like.
and .24 .25 .27 calibre projectiles are still to be found....
The .257 Roberts i saw yesterday would be awesome
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Until your brass or worse still, action lets go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentman
Trying to push a pre or worse still, war era Mauser to modern pressures will probably result in the rifle not being around for much longer.
I have many calibers and shot in all sorts of places at all sorts of game. My do anything rifle is a 308 I have two loads a 150 gr spbt that shoots zero at 100. great for the bush and out too 200 then another load 125gr that shoots 2 inches high at 100 without changing sights. perfect for long range. as I said a have many rifles but if I was only allowed one the 308 would be it for anything in nz. but you must also have a trusty 22 rimfire
125grn .308 "perfect for long range"....has bungi been reincarnated perhaps???
Pretty sure he meant the historic cartridge in a modern action, loaded hard, a 7x57 in a T3 would show a clean pair of heels to the 7mm08, 257 Bob could be a hot proposition too, quite appealing that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by caberslash
Doubt there would be that much difference, as the sacrifices made to accommodate a longer case don't add up.Quote:
Originally Posted by 257weatherby
All being equal (same action, barrel length and twist rate, bullet used), a few hundred fps more (being optimistic here) will not mean much in the grand scheme of things if the rifle actually has to be carried a great distance. Cramming more powder into a case (7x57 should be about 8-10 grains more H20 capacity) won't be worth it for a marginal increase in speed unless it's just a numbers game.
The fact that 7x57 is a 'long action' cartridge, and the 7mm08 a 'short action' one, brings up the whole '6.5 CM vs. 6.5x55' debate, and unless you live in Scandinavia, the latter cartridge is not the better choice.
Good reason why people are choosing to build 7mm SAUM's instead of 7mm Rem Mags now.
Please take that back....6.5x55 is a great cartridge....Especially in the likes of Howa or Husqvarna (1600)Quote:
Originally Posted by caberslash
....except in a little backwater called New Zealand/Aotearoa....where people can buy factory 7mmRM off the shelf...no such luck with 7mmSAUM.Quote:
Originally Posted by caberslash
While both will do the same job - poke holes in animals from a good distance.... if you are travelling between islands and want to buy ammo wherever you end up - you have no show of finding SAUM...
Refer to an earlier post which succinctly pointed out how stupid threads in this vein are...
Greetings All,
I think that the OP had an answer in the first few replies so the following 70 or so are just an oppurtunity to have a little fun and perhaps get some new ideas along the way. People that own 6.5x55, 7x57 and 7mmSAUM rifles often do so because they want something different, interesting or whatever. Needing to handload to get decent ammo is an advantage rather than the opposite. Needing to purchase ammunition away from home is unneccesary as this is the last thing that we are likely to forget or run out of. For those of us who don't handload the 6.5 Creedmoor, 7mm-08, 7MM Rem Mag and the .308 are great choices, perhaps some more than others. In deference to Micky Duck I should include the .270 in that list as well. Each of us makes choices based on likes at the time. Each choise is right for us although sometimes regretted later. At least we have choice.
In the dim and distant past when I started cruising the gun shops choice was limited for new rifles with only around 6 commonly available cartridges. Sure there were others like the 7x61 S&H and .308 Norma Mag but these were seldom seen. A thread like this would have been over pretty quick. But there was no internet, no cell phones, GPS or range finders. It was a simpler time. Enjoy these threads but don't take them too seriously.
Regards Grandpamac.
"Needing to purchase ammunition away from home is unneccesary as this is the last thing that we are likely to forget"
I know someone who flew into a block, unpacked and realised the bolt was safe and sound at home.... Another (a pathological liar :D ) who arrived back to the car and told us he'd missed a couple of deer. Then we pointed to his bolt sitting on the back seat..... He never batted an eyelid, just kept up the bull shite... :D
If you shoot for the front legs then a number of cartridges will do the job but if you are a meat hunter like me and go for the lungs then I would go 30/06 then 270 for the shock power. At the longer distances with anything slow your going to need a dog to find a lot of them. Just my opinionQuote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
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I've been following a very worthwhile channel on youtube called "Backfire" where the guys do real world unsponsored reviews on rifles and cartridges plus loads of handy comparisons and I'm quite set on the 280ai for a mountain setup caliber as I still have reloading equipment but that'll be reserved for later. As pointed out by few members the ol 308 does tick alot of boxes for me but so does the 30 06 except for added recoil on lightweight setup. Having had a brno ZG47 in 30 06 the recoil was quite manageable but it was also a heavier rifle. Good thing was just the versatility as I loaded 220gr for close bush and 180grs for longer range work. Guess I may have to take the scientific approach and flip a coin on that. Thanks for everyone taking the time to share their thoughts and experiences, really enjoyed the feedback!
