Ruger Ranch II Bolt face - do I have a problem?

Got to the range for first time in a while. Shot off some 223 for shits and giggles on steel plates.

Mostly subsonics with Trailboss but also some.62gn Hdy BTHP over 21.5gn IMR3031. Hogdon give 20.3gn as Start and 22.0 as max for 62gn pill.

On cleaning the cases today I find one with a blackened head and what appears to be a pinhole alongside the edge.of the primer

Attachment 182528

I have put probably 500 rds thru the rifle to date, about 50% of that load dev on the range. The rest being mostly Belmont 62gn ammo and PPU Factory. Have not encountered this before with this rifle or any other. Here is what all the rest look like which is normal

Attachment 182529

So that lead me to race off and examine my bolt face, rifle cleaning being scheduled for this arvo. Yip, it was pretty black. After a bit of isopropyl on a cotton bud, it looks like this...

Attachment 182530

Attachment 182531

I have had the rifle from new. I rarely load to max in any calibre and scrutinize my primers quite carefully when doing load dev.

So does this bolt face look like just rough manufacture or does it look like it has been etched by repeated primer fails? Can't believe the latter as I would have picked it up at the time. This was a Murom SP primer.

Would someone with the same rifle care to post a photo of their bolt face?

Cheers

Gas cutting from leaking primers. WSR are supposed to be had for it too

Have had factory rounds do it to me b4

Greetings,
Caused by a defect in the primer. Not unknown but not common either. I will leave the bolt face to others for comment.
Grandpamac.

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Originally Posted by Jhon

So does this bolt face look like just rough manufacture or does it look like it has been etched by repeated primer fails? Can't believe the latter as I would have picked it up at the time. This was a Murom SP primer.

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Both - bloody hell that's a rough bolt face. Looks like it was finished with a bucket of gravel. What's with it being beaten to all get out around the rim?

Yes you do have gas cutting. Either weak primer or loose primer pocket. It happens - if it happens often you might need to change primer or discard brass that have too looser primer pocket.

winchester large rifle primers are known to do this

being 223 obviously not large rifle but good to see winchester making an appearance

NRANZ don't stock large rifle Russian primers for this very reason.......in TR rifles this was common. Reloaders would not sell their stock for the same reason.

Your supplier needs to be asked the question if small rifle primers had the same reputation as large rifle, and if so should they have been sold.....?

The bolt is buggered ....needs repair or replacement

Now i am going to check my ruger ranch bolt face, yours look like it was used as a makeshift bush hammer when not shooting shit and i'm not talking about the possible etching.

That would not bother me ,so it's rough looking ain't going to come to much

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Photos are not great but there doesn't appear to be pressure sighs. A check of the primer pocket for excess expansion will tell you more in that area.

Most likely as other have said, a faulty primer. Winchester had a bad rep for it several years ago. Murom generally has a good rep for consistency at least.

Mate has several Rugers and they are the roughest machined bolt faces I have ever seen and his don't have gas etching.
Unfortunately when you have a primer blow like that you will always have gas etching to some degree. Pisses off but mainly cosmetic. Although yours appears to have multiple etches - has this happened before?
You should remove the striker and firing pin assembly and clean out the bolt internal as debris can blow back into there and cause mischief.

When you say Murom SP I hope the SP doesn't mean small pistol?

You also aren't clear whether it was from the Trailboss load or the 3031 load.

Here's a comparison with my 7.62x39, had shot 100's reloads, china milsurp and factory ammo.

Attachment 182588

Just got to admire that workmanship

I have had a whole box of federal blue box ammo etch a bolt face in 7-08 before I noticed the primers where leaking.

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Originally Posted by Makros

Both - bloody hell that's a rough bolt face. Looks like it was finished with a bucket of gravel. What's with it being beaten to all get out around the rim?

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Don't know. It looks terrible in the photo as I used magnification to get a decent photo. In the flesh you see very small marks. I can only think it happens when a round is being picked up from the magazine. Otherwise I don't have a clue.

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Originally Posted by mimms2

I was going to say those case-heads looks very peened. And yeah, can see why!

Bolt face looks fucked, but not erosion/blowby. I'd definitely have that remedied.

On the first pic, has the case holed, or the primer, or both?

Generally If it's not sealing up (/blowing by) it's due to underpressure (not swelling brass to seal chamber) though with a load half a nudge under max that's unlikely.
A chamber cast/measure would tell you how loose it is.

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Is the bolt really fucked? It shoots fine. I put 50 rounds thru it yesterday, all but 15 were the Trailboss subs. No other primer showed an issue. The case heads in the flesh look bog standard..the photo magnification picks up every nuance and these have been fired 2-3 times. Which is why you might think they look peened. I'm not dissing your comments, I just don't understand what is happening here. I shoot and reload several calibres. 49 case heads look no different to normal whether Subs or normal. Can't see how there is any "blowby".

The 223 brass looks no different to multiple fired 222 brass or 22-250 brass I have. Or 30 or 30-30 or 308 for that matter. Using the same Murom primers or Winchester or CCI or Federal.

And yes these are Murom small rifle, "SP" was a typo I did not pickup.

I could understand the bolt face looking as it does if I had multiple cases showing blowback past the primer. That is simply not happening. The one I showed is the first I have seen in years of reloading any calibre. I am more likely to believe the marks on the boltface are manufacturing marks- but what the hell do I know?

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Originally Posted by Slug

Now i am going to check my ruger ranch bolt face, yours look like it was used as a makeshift bush hammer when not shooting shit and i'm not talking about the possible etching.

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Yeah true that.

I guess the next questions are
1. What is the downside of keeping shooting it? If the rifle still groups, which it does, and there is only one blown primer out of 50, what further harm is going to happen?

2. How do you fix it? Machine the bolt face ( change the headspace?) or replace the bolt or bolt head?

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Originally Posted by zimmer

When you say Murom SP I hope the SP doesn't mean small pistol?

You also aren't clear whether it was from the Trailboss load or the 3031 load.

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Yes typo there, should say small rifle, and it was the 3031 load

Also I realize in my panic looking at the bolt I mis-stated the 3031 load. They are actually 69gn pills at the published max of 22.5gn. I don't have my notebook with me and looked up the load data for 62gn to check.

Having said that, this load was the one I settled on after a chronoed ladder test at 50m during which I carefly examined each case as shot. No issues were noted. Bolt lift was and is normal etc etc.

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Originally Posted by NRT

That would not bother me ,so it's rough looking ain't going to come to much

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So you're saying stop looking at it and keep shooting? I like that idea lol

I've had a .22-250 Weatherby do the same thing. Was using federal brass and Winchester primers, happened with light normal and hot loads and the primer pockets all felt perfectly fine.

Ended up switching to Norma brass and the problem went away. Bolt head is etched from it but there doesn't appear to be any ongoing problems using it as is.

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Originally Posted by Dan.22-250

I've had a .22-250 Weatherby do the same thing. Was using federal brass and Winchester primers, happened with light normal and hot loads and the primer pockets all felt perfectly fine.

Ended up switching to Norma brass and the problem went away. Bolt head is etched from it but there doesn't appear to be any ongoing problems using it as is.

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Was there evidence of gas leak like blackening of the case head and bolt face? This is what has me stumped.. I concede I'm not perfect and on the face of it there has been primer failure and gas etching I simply have not noticed...fuckit! So I'm keen to understand what someone else was seeing re their case heads when it was happening to them..

Jhon, the damage to the bolt is minor and should not pose any issues. The rifle still shoot and groups well enough, keep shooting it and forget about the flame cutting on the bolt face.

The cutting should clean up nicely within 0.1 to 0.15mm - just moving your head space out of spec - If you've got the gauges you could set the barrel back a bit and thats it.

If it was me, I'd shoot it until the rainy season and then send it off for repairs - if I feel like it.

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Originally Posted by Jaco Goosen

Jhon, the damage to the bolt is minor and should not pose any issues. The rifle still shoot and groups well enough, keep shooting it and forget about the flame cutting on the bolt face.

The cutting should clean up nicely within 0.1 to 0.15mm - just moving your head space out of spec - If you've got the gauges you could set the barrel back a bit and thats it.

If it was me, I'd shoot it until the rainy season and then send it off for repairs - if I feel like it.

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Great, thanks! That's what I needed to know.

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Originally Posted by Slug

Here's a comparison with my 7.62x39, had shot 100's reloads, china milsurp and factory ammo.

Attachment 182588

Just got to admire that workmanship

I have had a whole box of federal blue box ammo etch a bolt face in 7-08 before I noticed the primers where leaking.

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The gravel they used to finish that one was of a significantly smaller grade.

The bolt face damage is totally due to gas cutting by primer leakage. The bolt face could be repaired by careful TIG welding, doing just a small area at a time to avoid over-heating the bolt and drawing the temper, then machined out by a careful machinist to match the faces and leaving the correct headspace. Not job for the semi-skilled gunsmith but one who is fully skilled. The alternative is a new bolt body which may well be impossible to obtain without sending the rifle back to the factory. Ditch all your brass and start afresh with quality components.

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Originally Posted by gundoc

The bolt face damage is totally due to gas cutting by primer leakage. The bolt face could be repaired by careful TIG welding, doing just a small area at a time to avoid over-heating the bolt and drawing the temper, then machined out by a careful machinist to match the faces and leaving the correct headspace. Not job for the semi-skilled gunsmith but one who is fully skilled. The alternative is a new bolt body which may well be impossible to obtain without sending the rifle back to the factory. Ditch all your brass and start afresh with quality components.

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thanks, I think....

It looks to me for all the world like rippled weld marks. But I am not familiar with has cutting of bolt faces.

100% gas etching by leaking primers

Mark MacFarlane from Desert Guns fixed this bolt-face etching on my Rem Model 7. Couple hundred bucks and job done. Would have no hesitation recommending his work.

Attachment 182626

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Originally Posted by gqhoon

Mark MacFarlane from Desert Guns fixed this bolt-face etching on my Rem Model 7. Couple hundred bucks and job done. Would have no hesitation recommending his work.

Attachment 182626

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Ok that's really helpful. That's is convincing me about the etching happening as the photo shows almost identical damage.

Did you get it fixed because it was affecting functioning? or because you couldn't stand looking at it lol?

There appears in both your and my instances that there is sufficient undamaged bolt face immediately around the firing pin to support the primers. So the gas is clearly leaking like my example from around the edge of the primer against the case head.

Also, what was the cause for you and remedy? Bad primers? Bad or worn brass? Incorrect headspacing?

Others please weigh in here if you have similar experience. Photos would be good.

My brass that shows no sign of gas leak is FC (Federal headstamp) marked 223. It has had probably 3-4 firings.

The one that has the pin hole is a random Winchester headstamp I was unaware was in the mix. Clearly past it's used by date. i guess I will be sorting my brass thoroughly. Given it is a hunting rather than a benchrest rifle, and used to do a bit of plinking, I have not fussed about brass other than checking for obvious defects. Looks like I have to check harder.

What I plan to do is reload some of the 49 brass I have at hand, this time with WSR primers and two different powders, AR2206H and Benchmark 2, at 1 gn under max charge. I'll colour the bolt face in with felt pen and check each time for new gas cutting. I'll keep going with this until I am confident I have found the culprit issue. I do not see the point in fixing the bolt face just to have it happen again.

And as some have pointed out, if I can stop it happening now, and there are no issues or impacts on the gun shooting, the only reason to fix it is pride. Which may be enough in the end. I'm just glad its not $4k rifle !

Another thing that can cause it is scratching the primer pocket when decrimping or cleaning I had that happen with a 2nd hand lot of Lapa 308 brass picked up.
5 blew out of 30 but none of my mixed lot ppu, winchester or federals did all primed with the same cci primers. Like you I didn't notice till later. Didn't worry about the bolt face though not after having seen some nra target rifles.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Another thing that can cause it is scratching the primer pocket when decrimping or cleaning I had that happen with a 2nd hand lot of Lapa 308 brass picked up.
5 blew out of 30 but none of my mixed lot ppu, winchester or federals did all primed with the same cci primers. Like you I didn't notice till later. Didn't worry about the bolt face though not after having seen some nra target rifles.

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The plot thickens. Has anyone found the same thing after swaging primer pockets?

I bought the rifle on TradeMe, and failed to do my due diligence and ask for photos of the bolt-face. So while I’m not certain of the cause, the seller did acknowledge that they used Winchester primers, which apparently a bad batch of is well known for this etching of the bolt-face around the primer perimeter.

The rifle shot very well, but the rough bolt face created brass shavings from cycling the bolt. It was still functional, but gave me the shits, so decided to get it fixed.

Mark bushed the bolt-face and was able to maintain the same headspace. I asked Mark to use Jim Borden’s method as per this link https://bordenrifles.com/wp-content/...g_pin_bush.pdf

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Was there evidence of gas leak like blackening of the case head and bolt face? This is what has me stumped.. I concede I'm not perfect and on the face of it there has been primer failure and gas etching I simply have not noticed...fuckit! So I'm keen to understand what someone else was seeing re their case heads when it was happening to them..

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Case and bolt head looked very similar to yours, however occasionally some gas/rubbish would blow back along the bolt and you could just feel it on your face. Was a very uneasy feeling but made me pretty certain it was gas cutting on the bolt.

After trimming the brass it was obvious that the neck thickness varied a lot, I decided to replace it as the first step in trying to solve the problem and it ended up working. I've used the same and different batches of Winchester primers and CCI primers since and had no issues.

Hadn't thought about the fact that cleaning the primer pockets could have caused it but I did put a lee tool in the drill to do those 200ish rounds of factory brass so it may have been the cause. That would definitely explain the randomness of them.