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My SS Howa mini action practically rusts in front of your eyes. Way worse than my other stainless or blued rifles. Only seems to be the action, barrel is fine. Anyone else found this? Also any ideas on prevention? Gun oil did bugger all, eezox seems to be better but still the odd it of rust just sitting in safe let alone hunting!
hmm, either Howa are rubbish or you need to look at your safe .
not one spot of rust on mine, none on any rifles in the safe
It seems you need to passivate the stainless steel parts.
Basically boiling the stainless steel part in a citric acid solution. It removes rust and it removes the free exposed iron that is prone to rust --- leaving only nickel and chrome in touch with the outside environment.
The nickel later oxidizes, which further protects the part.
NB! Of course, don't do this to carbon steel items.
WD40, takes a a few applications to seal them.
My 1500 (short action) 223 has had this issue - a lot of rust appeared quickly - very similar to the one that was on here for sale a wee while ago. The other Howa I bought 3 years ago hasn't had this issue at all with the same treatment and handling.
Hmmmm - my Howa did the same. @Cordite is onto it I think we used to passivate boat fittings (which are a higher grade of SS) or they'd "spot" as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
Yup howa rifles are terrible for this. So seem to be worse than others. My .308 gets rusty arond the action. Bolt and barrel are fine.
My howa doesnt do this but my tikka does they live in the same safe
My Tikka does the same on the action though.....when I inquired about it I got the answer"....its all in the name....stain less...its not stain nothing..." thought it was quite funny at the time but after giving it some thought it makes sense. For stainless to achieve the hardness needed for knives and barrels for that matter its needs to be mixed with carbon ect ect. So it does require some kind of oil/protection but not as much as normal steel.
Interesting thing to keep in mind! Just because something is 'stainless' does not mean it won't corrode. All of the Howa's I have owned, have been great rifles and have never rusted (however I do live in a very dry climate and don't hunt on the coast/Fiordland). I have seen some terribly rusted Tikka's in the past too. So it could be to do with how it is stored, or the mix of metals in the build. Either way, it's really gutting when a rifle rusts!!!
Interesting, never had a blued rifle rust as readily as the howa, kinda defeats the point of paying extra for stainless for extra corrosion resistance.
I'm the same @Hunty1
I love my .308 but that rust really annoys me. I'm contemplating getting a mini but will buy a blued one if they are cheaper. A quick wipe with an oily rag removes rust from blued steel, but the rust on my howa is stubborn as.
In saying that the stainless barrels seem to be fine and that what counts the most in the field.
My browning A5 (possible circa 70's but couldn't track it by the serial number even after contacting Browning), would rust if you turned your back on it.
PITA.
Gunsmith type at my local gunclub did some repairs on it after my son managed to jam it when I wasnt there one weekend. Also stripped and reblued it for me.
Came out a new gun-almost. Showed it to a good mate who just remembered it as almost shiny and he was gob smacked. Some pitting on exterior of muzzle but still pretty good.
It was a bitch for rust.
It did get a hiding but always tried to keep it oiled. Didnt seem to matter
Eezox or similar. It works. I treat my stainless Howas with this and keep up the treatment with use. I'm also diligent about properly drying the rifles after wet use - and they often gets used in drenching rain. I strip it down, dry it in front of the fire or in the sun in summer, and re-apply the Eezox. No rust. I have left my .243 on the bike overnight in the rain (long story) and it was fine.
Comments re Tikka are spot on, they do it too, though not to the same extent. Several stainless brands will rust if not maintained.
There's a really interesting YouTube video testing all the different coatings, you should see untreated stainless steel in the warm salt water spray after 12 hours. Looks like it's been on the bottom of the ocean for 12 years. Cerakote was mint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyblown
Yeah, still get rust with Eezox (nowhere as bad as just oily rag treatment tho) I'm pretty pedantic about my rifles and never had any rifle as bad as this. Stainless on my tikka's and Remington are like new compared to the howa and had a far harder life.
How does the blued versions compare for rust protection though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dama dama
Do you put on a generous coating and let it dry overnight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunty1
I used to have a business doing fabrication in stainless steel. It is indeed stain-less not stain-nothing. What works best is not so much oiling it but rubbing. Rubbing helps develop a layer of chromium oxide which is the outer protective layer. If it has not been cleaned in a while a soft rag moistened with WD40 will polish it up, or a commercial cleaner used for SS kitchen ware. Never use Steel Wool or any steel abrasive. Steel wool will impregnate the surface of SS with particles that will quickly cause rust. If you want to work a blemish or scratch out use a synthetic (green usually) potscrub. These are available in different grades from coarse to fine. Apply the same logic as you would with sandpaper. Including going with the grain. However you will end up with a matt burnished finish, you will never get back an original foundry bright finish. Use WD40 on the potscrub. Stainless not regularly rubbed will always tarnish to some degree over time. Higher grades will tarnish less.
Alright ya made me look.
My Howa minis last 5 or 6 outings have been in the boat and the last time out it copped a bit of spray and wet hands handling.(salt water)
Home from last trip it went straight in the safe thinking I better give it a wipe in the next few days....that was two or 3 weeks ago so reminded by this thread I got it out for a wipe just now.
A few very small blemishes on the outside of barrel....nothing on action some salt crystals on scope.
Attachment 171492
Attachment 171493
A wipe with a patch covered in breakfree clp cleaned it up fine.
I haven't found it to rust anymore than Sakos orTikkas I have owned.
While the above may sound like I am a bit slack on the upkeep before and after any decent trip I would strip from stock and clean and then protect with breakfree or eezox or something.....drown it then wipe off as much as you can.
Thats what works for me.
breakfree seems to be working for me so far.
And a note on blued metalwork. Rubbing with oil or any petroleum solvent removes the blueing. Bluing after all is a form of rust. To remove rust from a blued barrel or action use fine DRY steel wool, ONLY. The steel wool removes the rust rust and redistributes the actual blue. Then when finished with the steel wool, wipe over with a lightly oiled rag. 3in1 oil is ideal. Or if you like expensive, your favorite gun oil. But ordinary 30-30 motor oil will do the same job.
warm rifle up and lanocote on all mine
For years I gave my firearms a hard rub with vaseline on the theory of sealing the pores and leaving a water repellant outer. This always worked pretty well. The kroil oil is meant to penetrate to a millionth of an inch pore so a good rub with that may give protection. Wear impermeable gloves when using it though.
yep, i understandQuote:
Originally Posted by Woody
years back a mate of mine got confused between Y2K and KY gel.........................his hands fell off his clock
Ah no, never use steel wool dry. It will remove rust and but also mar the bluing. Always with oil. Use 0000 steel wool only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhon
For spots only the tip of a fired cartridge case will remove rust, along with a bit of oil.
Have refurbished many old rifles using 4 naught steel wool and oil and have never damaged the patIna.
If rust is more deep seated a more invasive removal method is needed maybe back to the white and then a refinish be it blueing cerakote or whatever.
As far as "stainless" goes people confuse the stainless used in barrels etc for true stainless 316.
Highly stain resistant grades of steel that would be found on boat fittings (eg 316 stainless) have higher amount of chrome for stain resistance, but have a lesser amount of carbon. This makes them highly stain resistant, but by comparison, soft and malleable, and therefore not ideal for rifle barrels compared to less stain resistant forms of steel.Quote:
Originally Posted by hamsav
Its all a balancing act between stain resistance, and hardness / wear resistance.
Someone could make super stain resistant barrels but the trade off is they would be be soft and have poor wear resistance (or be crazy expensive for a super exotic grade of specialty steel).
Well each to their own. Not going to tell you you're wrong but I did a lot of research on it and the net was NEVER use oil or petroleum products with steel wool on blued steel. It removes the blueing. I've used dry fine steel wool on a number of restoration jobs now and it works superbly. No scratching, excellent finish result. Then wipe with oily rag to protect. I guess we will differ and folk will do their own research and trials.Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer
I have treated every stainless rifle I've ever owned more or less the same way, and Howas do seem to be more susceptible to rust than others.
Further to the discussion above, here's one of the research notes.I saved...
"Use 0000 steel wool DRY.
The removed rust is an abrasive, if you put oil on the metal surface or on the steel wool, the removed rust is retained and rubbed on the surface which can damage the finish.
If you use the steel wool DRY, shake it out frequently and keep the surface of the gun dusted off the removed rust doesn't get rubbed around on the finish. Keeping the steel wool free of rust particle will minimize damage to the remaining finish.
You can oil the metal surfaces AFTER the rust has been removed but you want them to be as dry as possible while you're actually using the steel wool.
I'm posting this because I see a lot of people recommending the use of oil and steel wool to remove rust and I know from experience that is much harder on the finish. I used to have a friend with a gun shop and I would go over all the used guns each week to keep them oiled and rust free. Since they were out in the customer area, not behind the counter, they had been handled and some would build up light surface rust. I would oil them if they weren't rusty and remove the surface rust if they were rusted. It was easy to see the difference between using the steel wool with oil and without."
So yes, there lots of recommendations out there to use oil with the steel wool. Using it dry is counterintuitive..but there are good reasons to do so. But go do your own research, don't take my word for it.
Go for it. Like you say to each his own. I have seen the effect of raw steel wool on patina. Plus I cannot grasp how raw steel wool "spreads" the blueing. Blueing is not a movable object.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhon
I guess you cannot go wrong if it's off the net. :)
Rethink that practice, it does not make sense. I admit I have to date used oil with steel wool just as you suggest, with exactly your thought that it is more gentle and prevents scratches. But if that were true it would imply that if you oil a drill bit it does not cut as well ... and most of us know that's not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by GDMP
@Jhon gave a reasonable explanation above why not to use oil at the same time as the steel wool.
We can probably empirically test this.
Metal Properties Revealed in ‘Guide to Gun Metal’ « Daily Bulletin.
Might go someway to explaining the difference between rifle s/s and other stainless steels . I believe there are several hundred different 'stainless' alloys over and above the commonly used .
Even 316 has several versions in strength ratings .
Your average 316 stainless bolt for example is '70' grade and not recommended for use in areas such as mounting brake calipers as it can work harden and become brittle . But 316 '80' grade doesn't work harden the same and can be used in areas such as that .
Anyway , I hose down all my rifles after use , ss or blued , with Rem oil in the spray can and never had any rust issues . It claims to be Teflon based so I have been working on the assumption it leaves a Teflon coating and helps protect the metal . Seems to have worked ok for the last 25 yrs .
I give em a squirt , wipe to spread the rem oil and let air dry .
Clean , shiny with no oily residue .
Job done .
I have also had a couple of stainless Howas that rusted faster than any blued rifle I have ever owned.
Last one I had I gave it a really good coating and buffing with a soft cloth and "Flitz". Commonly used to protect knives and I believe also in museum restorations.
Really buffed it in and did 2-3 coats. Never had a problem after that. Just a wipe down with a rag with Ballistol after drying. Out of stock if really wet, and every time I wonder when I last did it. Occasionally rub some more Flitz on it, probably unessential though.
Although now I just Duracoat everything I can from new with the airbrush (never been a fan of the shiny barrels etc) and quick exterior wipe after trip, again with Ballistol
Springs are also made using bronze,copper,and monel tho not typically in firearms.
Stainless steel springs do exist as well.
Use Breakfree during the winter and Innox summer. Have always had a lot of time for Innox, had a 4 wheeler at the beach, used to hose down before heading home and when dry spray with Innox. Winter time seldom went near it. Never rusted in the 12 years it was there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Have come across this issue with my mini recently. I did actually drown it when I tipped over in a creek but it was showing surface rusting over the action, bolt, and barrel even before that from just being damp one day. Never struck this in my Remy stainless’s but had it occur with the T3X. Thought Is was prudent to pull it from the chassis just in case and sure enough, it was a mess. Had already cleaned it up with the 0000 steel wool and oil before finding this thread but I think I’ll break it down again, really have a good look at it and sort some form of protection for it.
Attachment 248103Attachment 248104
My stainless Howa was getting a few rust marks on it so I chatted to Murf about Cerakote colours and he recommended just blasting it and seeing how it goes.
Theory been the more matte finish holds oil better and I've found this true, even living next to and using this rifle near the sea.
Attachment 253890
