Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Ammo Direct Night Vision NZ


User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22
Like Tree22Likes

Thread: Scope rings - Steel vs Aluminium

  1. #1
    A Better Lover Than A Shooter Ultimitsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Less than 130 km from the sea
    Posts
    640

    Scope rings - Steel vs Aluminium

    Steel has 3 times the density of Aluminium. That means, for the same volume/physical size, steel weighs 3 times more than aluminium and is stronger than aluminium (but not 3 times stronger). On the other hand, for the same weight, aluminium will be 3 times bigger than the steel, is about 40% stronger than steel.

    Now, to achieve the same strength you will need steel that is about 40% heavier, and 60% smaller in size compared to aluminium. The weight difference is why most modern mid-ranged bicycles use aluminium for its frame instead of steel.

    Steel has two mechanical advantages over aluminium - it is wear resistant and it is fatigue resistant. these two advantages means we use steel to make rifle barrels and knifes and swords. Also for bikes where fatigue resistance is important - for example park BMX - steel is used over aluminium.

    But these two advantages has no application to rifle scopes rings. I have never seen or heard a scope ring breaking in half due to fatigue caused by repeated recoil. In fact, I would have thought if there is recoil induced fatigue, the scope would probably die before the ring dies. Yet as far as I know all scopes, cheap or expensive, use aluminium for the body. No one uses steel. So obviously everyone thinks that the thin aluminium tube is strong enough to withstand recoil for a life time (for those scopes with life time warranty).

    As far as I can see, we only need these characters from rifle scope rings:
    1. that it is strong.
    2. that it is light.
    3. that it is made with precision.

    It would seem to me that Steel offers no advantage whatsoever. For two sets of rings offering the same strength, the steel rings will be 40% heavier, and also 60% smaller which means reduced scope contact surface area, which means less friction and that the rings need to be tightened more and more likely to lead to ring marks or crushing the ring.

    Therefore, I am not sure why steel is used for scope rings.

    Can the steel ring proponents shed some light into this?
    10-Ring and Moa Hunter like this.

  2. #2
    Member gadgetman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Christchurch
    Posts
    17,981
    There are more than just two mechanical advantages of steel over aluminium, and like anything there are differences in aluminiums and steels. Another reason steel is used for barrels is heat tolerance. The aluminium rings need to be made from an appropriate grade of aluminium. Areas that can let aluminium scope rings down are the high stress areas, the threading and the contact area with say rimfire scope dovetails.
    Moa Hunter, ChrisW and Gkp like this.
    There are only three types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't!

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    796
    Aluminium is generally softer than steel.
    We are talking about clamping something soft (aluminium rings) to something hard (steel receiver).

    There are many possible variables, but the gist of it is; under repeated recoil it is possible for the aluminium to mar or peen under the superior hardness of the steel to a point where they can become loose.
    If you look at old alumimum rings that have been on a rifle with a reasonable amount of recoil, sometimes you will see that the recoil bearing surfaces of the rings are deformed where they have been repeatedly subjected to pressure by a much harder material.

    IMO, alumiunium rings require a greater contact area with receiver in order to mitigate the potential for the softer material to deform.
    Both have their place. Some of the best mounts in the world are made of aluminium (spuhr), but they also have huge contact areas between the steel and aluminium.
    I would be perfectlu content with for example steel optilocks which dont have much of a contact patch. But I would not want aluminium optilocs as the contact area would be too small to have good longevity without deformation.

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Omaru
    Posts
    565
    A couple of little points. There is a big difference in modulus of steel and aluminium, steel is much stiffer. You cant really say steel is this much stronger than aluminium, there are huge variances in strength of both. Friction is not dependent on contact surface area.

  5. #5
    Member Ground Control's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Australia / Marlborough Sounds
    Posts
    1,349
    When it comes to mounts and rings you get what you pay for .
    Doesn’t matter to me Steel or Alloy , I have both and payed $$$$$$ for both .
    ChrisW likes this.
    FALL IN LOVE WITH THE NUMBERS , NOT THE IDEA

  6. #6
    A Better Lover Than A Shooter Ultimitsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Less than 130 km from the sea
    Posts
    640
    Quote Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog View Post
    A couple of little points. There is a big difference in modulus of steel and aluminium, steel is much stiffer. You cant really say steel is this much stronger than aluminium, there are huge variances in strength of both. Friction is not dependent on contact surface area.
    Hi there, I would disagree on two points.

    firstly, steel is definitely not the stiffer of the two. It is well accepted that when it comes to bicycle materials, steel frame offers a more forgiving, shock absorbing ride. aluminium frames on the other hand is harsher, more punishing because it is stiffer.

    secondly, I cannot agree that friction is not dependent on contact surface area. If so all race cars would have skinny tyres.
    tetawa and Moa Hunter like this.

  7. #7
    Unapologetic gun slut dannyb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Oxford, North Canterbury
    Posts
    9,184
    I've used Talleys aluminum rings on 3 different rifle set ups now, a 270win and 2 different 270 wsm setups and never had an issue with any warping or deformation.
    Cant see myself changing rings anytime soon.....if it ain't broke.....

  8. #8
    A Better Lover Than A Shooter Ultimitsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Less than 130 km from the sea
    Posts
    640
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisW View Post
    Aluminium is generally softer than steel.
    We are talking about clamping something soft (aluminium rings) to something hard (steel receiver).

    There are many possible variables, but the gist of it is; under repeated recoil it is possible for the aluminium to mar or peen under the superior hardness of the steel to a point where they can become loose.
    If you look at old alumimum rings that have been on a rifle with a reasonable amount of recoil, sometimes you will see that the recoil bearing surfaces of the rings are deformed where they have been repeatedly subjected to pressure by a much harder material.

    IMO, alumiunium rings require a greater contact area with receiver in order to mitigate the potential for the softer material to deform.
    Both have their place. Some of the best mounts in the world are made of aluminium (spuhr), but they also have huge contact areas between the steel and aluminium.
    I would be perfectlu content with for example steel optilocks which dont have much of a contact patch. But I would not want aluminium optilocs as the contact area would be too small to have good longevity without deformation.
    Most weaver and picatinny scope rails are made of aluminium. in fact I do not know any rail that is made of steel. Most people happily screw these rails onto the steel action. I have never heard of aluminium scope rail breaking either.

    With weaver or picatinny scope rail, you also do not have have slipping issue.
    tetawa likes this.

  9. #9
    Almost literate. veitnamcam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Nelson
    Posts
    24,964
    Why would you reduce the clamping area of the steel ring rather than keep it at optimum and just thin out its section? that makes no sense.

    I have never had an optilock or leupold steel mount move or come loose or give me any issue other than being slightly heavy and some surface rusting.
    I have had a number of (cheap) alloy mounts move after the rifle has been knocked or dropped.....top quality ones may be better and one would hope so.
    Moa Hunter likes this.
    "Hunting and fishing" fucking over licenced firearms owners since ages ago.

    308Win One chambering to rule them all.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Omaru
    Posts
    565
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimitsu View Post
    Hi there, I would disagree on two points.

    firstly, steel is definitely not the stiffer of the two. It is well accepted that when it comes to bicycle materials, steel frame offers a more forgiving, shock absorbing ride. aluminium frames on the other hand is harsher, more punishing because it is stiffer.

    secondly, I cannot agree that friction is not dependent on contact surface area. If so all race cars would have skinny tyres.
    You dont have to agree, however steel has an elastic modulus of around 210GPa 7075 t6 is around 70 GPa, no where near as stiff. Your bike frame analogy is confusing section properties with material properties, in theory you could make a steel bike frame that was stiffer and lighter than an alloy one however wall thicknesses would be way to thin to be practical. Tyre force transmisson is limited by the tyre material
    veitnamcam and gadgetman like this.

  11. #11
    MSL
    MSL is offline
    Member MSL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Waikato
    Posts
    6,471
    You do not know of any rails made of steel?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    gadgetman likes this.

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Kapiti Coast
    Posts
    1,065
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimitsu View Post
    Hi there, I would disagree on two points.

    firstly, steel is definitely not the stiffer of the two. It is well accepted that when it comes to bicycle materials, steel frame offers a more forgiving, shock absorbing ride. aluminium frames on the other hand is harsher, more punishing because it is stiffer.

    secondly, I cannot agree that friction is not dependent on contact surface area. If so all race cars would have skinny tyres.
    Steel is definitely stiffer than Aluminium. Physics say so.

    Unlike strength, which can vary from grade to grade or even coil to coil, Young’s Modulus is constant for a given metal and is independent of heat treatment, processing, or cold work. Young’s Modulus for steel (29 million PSI) is three times that of aluminum (10 million PSI). This means that for a fixed geometry, a part made out of steel will be three times as stiff as if it were made out of aluminum. In other words, an aluminum part under load will deflect three times as much as a similarly loaded steel part.

    The thickness and shape of the formed part also contributes to its stiffness. Stiffness is proportional to the cube of the thickness. To neutralize aluminum being one-third the stiffness of steel, an aluminum part must be made 44 percent thicker than the steel part. Even with this increased thickness, there is a potential for weight savings since aluminum is one-third the density of steel.

    There are a few steel picatinny rails out there. I have a Warne steel rail on my Rem700, with Leupold steel rings. It's not a hunting rifle so the weight is not a factor. Have alloy picatinny rail and vortex alloy precision rings on my hunting rifle, and they just work too.
    veitnamcam and Moa Hunter like this.

  13. #13
    Member gadgetman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Christchurch
    Posts
    17,981
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimitsu View Post
    Most weaver and picatinny scope rails are made of aluminium. in fact I do not know any rail that is made of steel. Most people happily screw these rails onto the steel action. I have never heard of aluminium scope rail breaking either.

    With weaver or picatinny scope rail, you also do not have have slipping issue.
    https://www.egwguns.com/scope-mounts...a-ambidextrous
    There are only three types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't!

  14. #14
    Member gadgetman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Christchurch
    Posts
    17,981
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimitsu View Post
    Hi there, I would disagree on two points.

    firstly, steel is definitely not the stiffer of the two. It is well accepted that when it comes to bicycle materials, steel frame offers a more forgiving, shock absorbing ride. aluminium frames on the other hand is harsher, more punishing because it is stiffer.

    secondly, I cannot agree that friction is not dependent on contact surface area. If so all race cars would have skinny tyres.
    You are correct on the points I have highlighted.
    quentin likes this.
    There are only three types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't!

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Middle Earth
    Posts
    4,287
    One theory is that when your picatinny rail is made of steel, it expends at the same rate as the receiver therefore having less chances of inducing stress during variation of temperatures.

    Also, just to give an idea (but I am not sure what steel is used for scope mounts):

    https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/7...l-Carbon-Steel
    Moa Hunter likes this.

 

 

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Welcome to NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums! We see you're new here, or arn't logged in. Create an account, and Login for full access including our FREE BUY and SELL section Register NOW!!