Thread: Sub MOA rifles

With a few makes coming out and giving the guarantee of a sub moa guarantee, it left me wondering what reasons any newer rifle wouldn’t be sub moa? Cheaper models (less than $1k) I could understand that tolerances could be off etc. it seems like the majority of mid to upper mid quality $1k-2k rifles should be able to offer the same. If I am going to from $1500 on a new rifle, I would expect it to be able to consistently shoot what I point it at.
Mostly just curious

I got a howa in 6mm creedmore and 223, and they both shoot sub inch at 100m. The 7.62x39 shoots about an inch as well but haven't really had a decent crack as I'm reloading for it.
The creedmore cost $950 and the 223 was $649.

sub=moa standards are like saying a f...ing pos tesla will do 600km on a charge. so many variables to make it achievable

I think the quality of the barrel, overall stiffness of the stock, and a well designed bedding method are significant factors in producing accurate rifles. Then a good trigger helps the average Joe to actually achieve results without wizardry.

I think in order to guarantee accuracy, the rifles had better be consistently very good otherwise itl create more problems than its worth. Its time consuming and costly going out and test firing, then trouble shooting rifles which don't perform as expected.
In order to guarantee it without causing real headaches, I reckon you need to be somewhere around 1 problem rifle per 500+ rifles- which means good quality control.
You will go bust real quick if you tried to sell cheap rifles that had an accuracy guarantees that they didnt meet the huge proportion of the time; so in some cases its better to just not offer it at all even if the vast majority would meet such a guarantee.

@gonetropo I somewhat agree, but the likes of Tikka & Sako have taken it to the next level by guaranteeing accuracy with a specified range of ammunition; whereas most will others say "sub moa accuracy guaranteed" then leave it up to the end-user to make the stars align to actually achieve it.

I just picked up a Ruger American Predator in 6.5CM ($1k) for a hunting rig - sighted it in on Saturday - Sub MOA out of the box with 143gr ELD-X handloads. I was already reloading for my RPR so don't run any factory ammo - but reviews online all agreed that these things shoot way better than the price tag should allow - I'm happy with it

Originally Posted by ChrisW

I think the quality of the barrel, overall stiffness of the stock, and a well designed bedding method are significant factors in producing accurate rifles. Then a good trigger helps the average Joe to actually achieve results without wizardry.

I think in order to guarantee accuracy, the rifles had better be consistently very good otherwise itl create more problems than its worth. Its time consuming and costly going out and test firing, then trouble shooting rifles which don't perform as expected.
In order to guarantee it without causing real headaches, I reckon you need to be somewhere around 1 problem rifle per 500+ rifles- which means good quality control.
You will go bust real quick if you tried to sell cheap rifles that had an accuracy guarantees that they didnt meet the huge proportion of the time; so in some cases its better to just not offer it at all even if the vast majority would meet such a guarantee.

@gonetropo I somewhat agree, but the likes of Tikka & Sako have taken it to the next level by guaranteeing accuracy with a specified range of ammunition; whereas most will others say "sub moa accuracy guaranteed" then leave it up to the end-user to make the stars align to actually achieve it.

point taken but tika and sako would not perform 1moa in say a raging southerly with monsoon rain etc. there are always conditions between the end of the barrel and the target.

Originally Posted by gonetropo

point taken but tika and sako would not perform 1moa in say a raging southerly with monsoon rain etc. there are always conditions between the end of the barrel and the target.

I agree - but the guarantees generally don't allow for such conditions. The fine print is usually something along the lines of "will achieve sub-moa accuracy in a controlled shooting environment with high quality ammunition". Sako / Tikka take it a step further by specifying the ammunition that will achieve said results, and not leave it up to the end user to reinvent the wheel trying to get it to shoot something sub-moa.
In saying that we take problem rifles out into the world, and if it wont shoot sub-moa in whatever conditions its being tested in then its a problem and its up to us to get it to shoot as specified - whether in a monsoon or a sealed tunnel (which we don't have).

I have seen a you tube account of a guy trying to group sub MOA (I think) with a Howa 6.5 grendel.

He struggled despite his selection of handloads. Then learned that Howa's require time being shot in (my phrase for adding some copper into the bore to smooth it out.) Apparently Howas shoot better after they have been used a while.

He was unable to ascertain the kind of round count that it would take to get one to shoot really well.

I'd post a link, but I suck at that, and have forgotten the guy's name.

When I got both my Howas, they didn't group well, but I assumed that it was just 'cause I sucked at serious marksmanship.

Now I'm starting to think maybe we have both been improving....

Originally Posted by gonetropo

point taken but tika and sako would not perform 1moa in say a raging southerly with monsoon rain etc. there are always conditions between the end of the barrel and the target.

It's fair to say that all Sub MOA guarantee's are with mild weather conditions... If you want the absolute best Accuracy guarantee I think you will find check out Seekins
https://youtu.be/340YKCt_uXs

One thing to shoot MOA bolted in a vice at at indoor range.
Another to do it over a pack in the Blackbury's etc as Gonetropo says.
Take it with a grain of Salt. Besides if your like me and don't range shoot regularly, I would probably need to shoot 5x 3 shot groups and then cherry pick the one that suits and show it off.
Not like when I was shooting 22 indoor every week and going for the 10.1's.
Z

I suspect that with modern machine tools pretty much every manufacturer can make barrels etc to such a high standard that they are capable of moa. It's the other bits where costs are cut that let them down.
I've seen several of remingtons flagship for its voyage to the depths the model 770 turn in sub moa groups. They may have taken some time to shoot what with the dismal extract and ejected setup, the fiddly to feed from magazine and interesting trigger but they could do it repeatedly.
How they fared as they got older I have no idea but you don't see them up for resale so perhaps they must be loved.

Originally Posted by Marty Henry

I suspect that with modern machine tools pretty much every manufacturer can make barrels etc to such a high standard that they are capable of moa. It's the other bits where costs are cut that let them down.
I've seen several of remingtons flagship for its voyage to the depths the model 770 turn in sub moa groups. They may have taken some time to shoot what with the dismal extract and ejected setup, the fiddly to feed from magazine and interesting trigger but they could do it repeatedly.
How they fared as they got older I have no idea but you don't see them up for resale so perhaps they must be loved.

my 700 jammed on extraction first shot i fired. i had to get the chamber polished. sighted in at 100 with 2" groups. then another 20 rounds it was 1" groups (factory ammo) then with load development go it down to 13mm group.

Obviously there are multiple external factors that will affect repeatable accuracy. I guess my question is there reason for a new decent quality rifle not to shoot sub moa? Of course there will be other factors like finding an ammunition that the rifle likes, and also shooting a barrel in not to mention the shooter behind the trigger. With the high level of tolerances manufacturers are able to achieve I don’t see why sub moa should not be achievable with any new rifle, even if it is not specifically guaranteed by the manufacturer.

Think its more the ammo then the firearm long as the basics are there eg bedding and full engagement with recoil lug

Have seen even very cheap barrel brands shoot fantastic with good ammo

Originally Posted by Shadowsol

It's fair to say that all Sub MOA guarantee's are with mild weather conditions... If you want the absolute best Accuracy guarantee I think you will find check out Seekins
https://youtu.be/340YKCt_uXs

Never got a reply back from them when I had a problem with mine (not accuracy related). I just wanted some questions answered.