Thread: Is it time to leave the 27 gang?

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

What a lot of cock pulling about recoil impulses. I have owned three 270's and shot plenty of others. The worst recoil by far was a T3. It is down to rifle weight, stock MATERIAL as well as design. You blokes will have Sir Issac Newton turning in his grave with that non-physics BS .
My pet 270 is a 700 with a Kevlar filled Bell and Carlson stock and thick standard recoil pad. We all know that kevlar absorbs / dissipates / slows shock waves. Anyone can fire that gun. It is quite a light gun. A friends son shot two pigs and a possum with it one evening and he was only 10 at the time.
Everyone knows that those hard ugly factory T3 stocks only use is for staking roses, why would anyone even consider using one on a gun ??.
You cant have velocity + projectile weight without an equal and opposite force - recoil

Interesting comments about the T3 stock. I’ve always rated them pretty highly as far as cheap polymer stocks go, they tend to be more rigid than most and fit the average person well enough. The recoil pad is no limbsaver but I’ve shot worse.

But hey maybe you’re right, maybe they are a shit design for the more powerful cartridges. The theory fits with my particular experience, that thing kicked like a mule! More than any 270 had any right to

Its hard to imagine a Kevlar stock compressing enough to make a difference to felt recoil...the Kevlar fibres are bound by hard epoxies and have to be more rigid than the plastic/fibre reinforced Tikka synthetic stock (they are really fibre dense and that's why they are relatively rigid).
So surely its about the behaviour of a straight stock as opposed to having some drop to the butt that directs recoil upwards? (muzzle jump)
I'm genuinely interested because I'm contemplating a 270 and I'm messing around building composite stocks.

get a 30 cal in wsm with a nice bit of walnut and at least 24 inch pipe,,26 is better,,been chasing bulls for a while and stalking in is not an option sometimes
the best ive seen were out past 600+ and with the wind on the east side Always blowing displacement in an advantage to let some air in in case you misjudge the strength of the wind which is easy to do

Originally Posted by Fisherman

Its hard to imagine a Kevlar stock compressing enough to make a difference to felt recoil...the Kevlar fibres are bound by hard epoxies and have to be more rigid than the plastic/fibre reinforced Tikka synthetic stock (they are really fibre dense and that's why they are relatively rigid).
So surely its about the behaviour of a straight stock as opposed to having some drop to the butt that directs recoil upwards? (muzzle jump)
I'm genuinely interested because I'm contemplating a 270 and I'm messing around building composite stocks.

@Fisherman
The Kevlar filling the action inlet is quite soft. I was concerned that the recoil lug would in time cause it to disintegrate around that area, so bedded it as well as the normal 50mm up the barrel channel. Is it not possible that the Kevlar is absorbing shock ?. After all the recoil lug is transferring recoil to the stock via the Kevlar fill. The But of the stock is also Kevlar filled so that the recoil pad sits on and is supported by Kevlar, not just the edges of the pad.
I have always thought that it would be an interesting experiment to fill the But section of a T3 stock with Gorilla Grip glue or Ramset expanding foam - both are polyurethane - with enough to have it foam out proud of the But when cured and then trim it back to be slightly proud, say 3mm so that the recoil pad sat onto the foam and screwed down with some pressure. A cheap experiment with minimal dicking around.

Originally Posted by Nick-D

It is 100% stock design. Physics is physics. The t3 stock is definatley a poor design for mitigating Recoil. I've noticed it in several different calibers.

Its also a combination of other factors, weight of powder charge contributes (10 - 20 % more in the 270?) As does muzzle pressure.

I agree re powder charge weight etc also making a difference, though this makes less difference than the stock etc. I remember years ago when reloading shotgun shells that loads with 700x ( a fast powder ) had a sharper recoil than loads with PB ( slow burn ) which gave more of a longer push versus a sharp punch, even though the book said that the velocity was within coo-ee

Originally Posted by 7.62

Interesting comments about the T3 stock. I’ve always rated them pretty highly as far as cheap polymer stocks go, they tend to be more rigid than most and fit the average person well enough. The recoil pad is no limbsaver but I’ve shot worse.

But hey maybe you’re right, maybe they are a shit design for the more powerful cartridges. The theory fits with my particular experience, that thing kicked like a mule! More than any 270 had any right to

It's the shape of the stock and Recoil pad that makes the difference. The old t3 Recoil pad is hard rubber, also the comb is very low so I find it sits a bit low on my shoulder pocket with proper eye alignment.

As far as rigidity, the t3 stock is about the best of the full plastic stocks. There isn't enough compression in stock material between polymer and kevlar/glass/carbon fiber to make a noticeable difference in felt recoil. You need to be able to lengthen the recoil impulse to make a change in peak force. a mil or 2 of stock deflection isn't going to make a difference

Originally Posted by Nick-D

It's the shape of the stock and Recoil pad that makes the difference. The old t3 Recoil pad is hard rubber, also the comb is very low so I find it sits a bit low on my shoulder pocket with proper eye alignment.

As far as rigidity, the t3 stock is about the best of the full plastic stocks. There isn't enough compression in stock material between polymer and kevlar/glass/carbon fiber to make a noticeable difference in felt recoil. You need to be able to lengthen the recoil impulse to make a change in peak force. a mil or 2 of stock deflection isn't going to make a difference

Interesting...the T3 recoil pad is smaller than anything else I have measured (small sample) and the comb is way to low for me...I need to do some comparisons with other stock brands.

Had a bit of a google on stocks and there is a youtube film comparing hardwood stocks with plastic and measuring the recoil impulse at the Butt. The plastic stock had more recoil. This was with a shotgun where the stocks were changed over and weight added to bring the gun to same weight.
There are also articles about guys filling their T3 stocks with Urethane foam to stop the hollow sound and also to reduce recoil

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Had a bit of a google on stocks and there is a youtube film comparing hardwood stocks with plastic and measuring the recoil impulse at the Butt. The plastic stock had more recoil. This was with a shotgun where the stocks were changed over and weight added to bring the gun to same weight.
There are also articles about guys filling their T3 stocks with Urethane foam to stop the hollow sound and also to reduce recoil

Composite bike manufacturers seem to concern themselves with flexibility in parts of their frames as much as rigidity in other areas. Massively technical stuff that I haven't begun to get my head around. My daughter is in the sprint kayak K4 going to the Tokyo Olympics and some pretty special technology has gone into the manufacture of their kayaks to achieve maximum rigidity...and its a two edge sword because the girls can feel things a more flexible boat hides...mostly the mistakes...

Originally Posted by Fisherman

Interesting...the T3 recoil pad is smaller than anything else I have measured (small sample) and the comb is way to low for me...I need to do some comparisons with other stock brands.

That would definatley contribute to felt Recoil, same force applied over a smaller area

I shot a yearling with a 8mm mouser at the weekend with a husky and hard plastic buttplate. Didn't feel a thing.

Many years back when I was thinking about what rifle and calibre to buy I noticed that many people were comparing their calibres performance to the 270. So I figured why not just get a 270? So that is what I did. Many years, several barrels and many many deer later it still works well. I love it. Is it the best? Probably not. But what is? All calibres have a level of compromise. I actually use a 308 more these days due to wanting something short, light and kind on my dog's ears. Ballistically it isnt as good as the 270 but it works well for what I need to do with it. As for barrel wear i don't care. That is semantics. Most shooters will never fire enough shots to wear out a barrel. Barrels are like car tyres. If I was making the same choice again would I pick a 270? Who knows? It might a 7/08. Rifle fit, using the right projectile, shot placement and knowing my loads ballistics are more important. But I guess this takes all the fun out of debating calibres.

Originally Posted by Nick-D

It is 100% stock design. Physics is physics. The t3 stock is definatley a poor design for mitigating Recoil. I've noticed it in several different calibers.

Its also a combination of other factors, weight of powder charge contributes (10 - 20 % more in the 270?) As does muzzle pressure.

Yea physics has nothing to do with it. My 22 kicks more than my 270 because it has poor stock design 😉

Lol. So after all that what are you thinking @GSP HUNTER ?

I reckon just do whatever you feel like doing. If you fancy playing with a new rifle and Cal then buy a rem mag. If you like the 270 and don't wanna move on then don't. Either way will achieve what you wanna do for your hunting and shooting. My only piece of advice would be learn to dial. It will make a considerable difference once you know how to do it.

Originally Posted by stagstalker

Lol. So after all that what are you thinking @GSP HUNTER ?

I reckon just do whatever you feel like doing. If you fancy playing with a new rifle and Cal then buy a rem mag. If you like the 270 and don't wanna move on then don't. Either way will achieve what you wanna do for your hunting and shooting. My only piece of advice would be learn to dial. It will make a considerable difference once you know how to do it.

Gday mate. I'm going to push the 270 a little harder next year with some eldx or long range accubond or bergers that I've been kindly given to try. The rifle is definitely a shooter so the advice seems to suggest pick suitable projectile, get closer 🤣 and pick your shots. Enjoying the banter and opinions and in some way homage to legend cartridge.