Thread: Uberti 38-55 1885 High Wall Sporter - first impressions, photo heavy

Having inflicted my enquiries on the Forum in anticipation of this purchase, and having pestered a couple of members for deeper advice, I thought I owed a bit of an update...

After a lengthy email back and forward with Wayne at Magnum Imports, Upper Hutt, wanting an 1885 Pedersoli High Wall with 1:12 Twist and 30" barrel, in the end I settled for what was on hand, a Uberti 1885 High Wall Sporter in 1:18 twist, 30" barrel. Apart from Pedersoli seeming to offer the model I was keen on only in 45-70 at the moment, Wayne advised a several month delay in an order arriving and an estimated price differential approaching $1,400. Mmmm...

The rifle duly arrived at Magnum Sports in Stratford along with 100 Starline Brass (long) and 100 blue powder coated cast 250gn bullets. I also took a punt on Delta Mike's new line of Serpent PC bullets and got 250 of their 250gn PC FP FB projectiles. Magnum Import's Blueys with shipping run at $1 each! Not sure who makes them or what brand they are. The Serpents are $80 plus shipping for 250ct. @MartyHenry was also kind enough to send me 10 of Robert Walker's Cast Gas Checked, Lubed FP, also 250gn. All three miked close enough to .379in that I could not tell a diff. The Serpents look really well made and it appears I got the last box that was on hand. The MI Blueys have very thin powder coating with lead showing through in places and look a tad rougher. I coated these in Liquid Alox before loading.

I had some difficulty getting a decent result loading up the first incremental test I wanted to run with ADI AR2207 (Reloader 7 equivalent). Starting with the Serpents, and new Lee Pacesetter Dies, using either a Lee 4 Hole Turret or my RCBS Summit SS press, the Serpents invariably produce a slight sidewall bulge on one side. Some more so than others. Neither the Walkers or the Blueys produced this, they bulged the thin brass evenly around the tube. My stubby fingers are finding it increasingly hard to hold a projectile straight under a standard Lee style seating die. In this respect I've come to prefer Hornady Seating Dies with their drop-down tube to accept the projectile and guide it in. Yes, I flare the case mouth slightly and start the bullet a little, turn the case, seat a bit further and repeat until depth is achieved. Crimp is set to straighten the case mouth slightly past level.

The second issue I had with the new brass and the Serpents was getting sufficient neck tension. The first loads, even with sizing the brass prior and increasing the crimp, the projectile easily turned with the fingers in the case mouth on some, and even slid in and out between the last lube grove and the crimp groove. This was not an issue with either the Walkers or the Blueys and went away completely with the Serpents with once fired, resized brass. Not sure what was going on there.

The rifle on unboxing is simply gorgeous. To date I've pretty much majored in older used wood and blue rifles with plenty of age and use apparent, or new Rossi Pumas and a Ruger American Ranch. So nothing flash. This is flash! At least to me and the most I've ever spent on a rifle. Yeah I know guys spend many thousands on classy guns but hey...
The fit and finish, I think, is pretty outstanding. Buying a rifle mail-order is somewhat potluck in terms of the timber - with this one I felt I got real lucky. I'm sure there are better but you would have to go and hand-pick to get it. The 30" octagonal barrel makes it a little weight forward but it still shoulders nicely. I will mostly shoot it off sticks to hunt with but quite confident I could take a shot off-hand also. Wouldn't want to have to shoot a long string offhand tho. The one thing I was not keen on was the storage compartment in the butt with several pieces of brass rod rattling around. No doubt period-correct but those rods came out pretty quick. I'm tempted to fill it up with 250gn projectiles to better balance the barrel, but then I might not be able to lift it lol.

@akaroa1 told me I would love shooting this and he is so right. I was not too worried about the first 50m shots, some hitting sideways and stringing, and I had the rear ramp a little high. The stability improved with more powder but also could have been a result of poor neck tension I guess. I have never found a recommended start charge to be the most accurate or tightest group, but I wanted to begin there to warm up the rifle, and me. The results are off a front rest and no back rest (yes I know - it's on the list). The action is super slick and solid. A real joy to use and I can see why a Falling Block is an @akaroa1 favourite. The trigger is light and also very slick to fire. A bit more than a touch but effortless. Recoil is very modest. The Buckhorn factory sights...well.. they are Buckhorns. I'm accumulating pennies to upgrade asap. Even so, I was tempted by my mates (who wandered along to take the piss), to take a shot at a 150m Clay bank. There is enough muzzle lift for me not to be able to closely observe POI but the ribaldry subsided a bit after they reported a dead centre plume of dust, shot offhand.

Anyway, I am somewhat besotted. I had taken some reloading gear to the range and took the best grouping result, the Walkers with 20.5gn AR2207, and reloaded 6 rounds with Serpents. No neck tension issues with the reloads. And the best group (Load 7 Below). With the remaining three of those rounds I challenged my mates to try their hand off a rest at the 100m gong (8"). I suggested aiming dead centre but disbelief prevailed and the first two guys, both excellent shots, decided the trajectory was bound to be majorly parabolic so held over. Both missed above and to the left. Third guy listened, held centre and slightly right and nailed it. Quite a plume of grass and earth when those 250gn flatpoints hit the paddock!

So back to the Clubhouse, another doz loaded up and a bit of gong therapy ensued. Now to refine and find The Load. I already have the ladder loaded up to take me up to max charge. and I'm off to construct a rear bag rest.

Here's some pics...

Unboxing...






That 50m target is a long way off!



First Incremental Loads



Results

@Jhon I forgot to mention that you would want to bundle the rifle with a tang rear and globe front sight.

With some practice the tang sight gets quick and easy to shoot and vastly superior to the Buckhorn sights

Could you keep us informed of the relative accuracy development of the Serpent 379 bullets.

Very nice rifle, you have good taste sir! As mentioned, an aperture rear sight and globe foresight will dramatically improve your ability to shoot the rifle and are vastly easier to use for older eyes.

I have been thinking about a Remington Rolling block in the same cartridge....

It's not your stubby fingers, Ive come across the one sided bulge in seating the bullets before, if you use a full case of powder so it is compressed, like black powder, this will fix that. Or a load with something like 2207 if that fills the case so its a bulk smokeless load.
(Or you can try flaring the case with a slightly larger bullet size, so its deeper)

Those are very low 2207 loads, I would have started at the max 24g, it is all well under max pressure

@Jhon are these repops flat or coil main spring ?

Flat is attched under the barrel in front of the action
Coil is wound around the hammer pivot

Just out of interest

I have 3 coil spring and 5 flat spring 1885s
My guess is these repops will be coil spring because its an easier spring to make, faster lock time and you don't need the hole in the front of the action from the flat spring

Winchester developed the coil spring so they could make a takedown model 1885

John,
I had the case flaring issue loading wadcutters in 357 mag cases.

However Lee make a case flaring die the you can adjust to give just enough flare so as to stop it.

Loading pistols I found a slight crimp helped accuracy with lighter loads. Might be worthwhile experimenting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by akaroa1

@Jhon are these repops flat or coil main spring ?

Flat is attched under the barrel in front of the action
Coil is wound around the hammer pivot

Just out of interest

I have 3 coil spring and 5 flat spring 1885s
My guess is these repops will be coil spring because its an easier spring to make, faster lock time and you don't need the hole in the front of the action from the flat spring

Winchester developed the coil spring so they could make a takedown model 1885

I believe its coil..drawings available on Uberti site

Originally Posted by Dicko

John,
I had the case flaring issue loading wadcutters in 357 mag cases.

However Lee make a case flaring die the you can adjust to give just enough flare so as to stop it.

Loading pistols I found a slight crimp helped accuracy with lighter loads. Might be worthwhile experimenting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm using the flaring capability of the Lee Powder through die. I have a Lee Universal flaring die which I will try next - I use this for other bottleneck rifle calibers I load with cast like 30-30 and 303B but it is quite an aggressive flare and the 38-55 is rather thin brass. I guess the Lyman calibre specific two step flaring die is worth a thought. I've avoided them simply because of cost multiplied by too many calibres..might have to make an exception all else failing.

Interesting tho that it is an issue with the Serpents but not with either the Walkers or the Blueys, all being a fairly alike flat point and flat base..

Someone else suggested the fit of the seating plug to the bullet nose could also cause this. Re the crimp yes I have always used a slight crimp with cast, first to close the flare then a tad more to try and uniform neck tension.

So lots to work through and thanks for the ideas folk. Fun fun...

I may have said this before but I don't crimp any casts except 3030 and that's just so I can use them in a 94. Doing so definitely reduces brass life. My trapdoor cases don't get sized anymore just the bullet seated in top of the powder. I used to fiddle n fart around with 577/450 when I got some Bertram cases to supplement my dwindling supply of SPANZ cases. Paper patching, grease wads the whole drama, they looked pretty but shot the same as the turned spanz cases with plain lubed bullets and those were just a push fit till you hit powder or the internal lip. Try everything is my suggestion.

UPDATE - 2nd Day Load Testing plus forming Brass from 30-30

Got out for a second day at the Range to complete the next set of incremental Load testing. Because I drive an hour each way, I try and allow for much more than I can execute in the time I have, just in case something goes awry. It's a long drive back if after 5 min you find you stuffed up. This time I decided also to have a go at forming brass from 30-30.

I have 100 new Starline Long brass so not driven by having none, just curiosity and another little adventure. Plus, I also had load tests in 303B and 44-40 with me. In the mix and minutia of getting my SH*T together, I managed to not include the AR2207 for the 38-55. I was planning to do loads at the range for the last incremental charges of AR2207 at 24gn, the published max, plus extend a bit if it appeared warranted. Luckily, I took other stuff to do.

I started at the reloading bench the day before with 26 R.P. Headstamped 30-30 brass of unknown provenance purchased at auction for not very much a few years back. I am not short of 30-30 brass. After a quick bit of forum and YouTube research, I lubed and de-primed the 30-30 in the 38-55 FL Size die, reprimed them, checked one would chamber in the Uberti, loaded 5 gn of ICI Nobel 78 Shotgun Powder (close to AS30N and Red Dot), tamped a light plug of paper towel over the top, added enough Cream of Wheat ("Polenta" here in NZ and other places outside the US) to come roughly within 5ml of the case mouth, tamped that down lightly, then a second light plug of torn off paper towel tamped on top to hold the Polenta in place. Stood them upright in a suitable ammo box to take to the range. There they were inserted one by one in the Uberti, pointed at an angle to the sky in a safe direction and fired. Presto- a nice fire-formed tube. Back the next day at the Bench, I annealed them (forgot to do this before I started which would have been much better) and ran them back through the 38-55 sizing die with lube. Then I took a now twice fired Starline 38-55 case and loaded it with a Serpent PC FP FB 250gn projectile as a reference cartridge. Here I learned something good. Per comments above and elsewhere it is common not to resize 38-55 brass to reload, once fired in a particular rifle. I thought to check this out and lo, the Serpent could not be inserted into the Starline case with finger pressure (last firing was with Serpent projectile loaded into once fired, FL resized case). But with the seating die it entered the case mouth with no prior flaring of the mouth and no fuss. Yes, I know Micky and Marty, you told me this but hey, I'm getting there...the really really good thing was that this time there was not only no one-sided bulge in the case from the Serpent bullet but no discernible bulge at all. Anyway, I am hoping for even better things for consistency in groups as a result. Back to the 30-30.

The 30-30 brass is reportedly thicker in the wall than Starline, or any, factory 38-55. This is quite evident and with the FL sized newly formed 30-30 tube, a flaring of the case mouth was required to seat a Serpent for a reference cartridge. I used the 38-55 reference cartridge to set the seating depth the same for both. With the flared mouth in the ex-30-30, required to seat a projectile the first time in FL sized brass, it is also necessary to use the crimp function of the seating die to close the flare to level. If to be used in a Lever Action tube mag, you would want to actually perform a decent crimp.

There are many comments in online threads that crimping30-30 brass fire-formed to 38-55, which is significantly shorter than factory Starline Long brass (see pic below), suggesting issues getting the short brass to crimp in a 38-55 die. With the Lee die at least there is no issue. Simply seat all your bullets at the desired depth. Then, with the press ram down, lower the seating die a quarter to a half turn from the no-crimp seating depth in order to engage the crimp function, remove the seating depth plug at the top, and run the cartridges with seated bullets back through the die at such crimp seating depth setting as gives you a level case mouth or crimped case mouth to suit your purpose. This may be different for non-Lee dies and I have not tried a Lee FCD die.

Anyway, I now have 24 short 38-55 cases fire-formed from 30-30 brass. Two were discarded with minute split case mouths - I really should have annealed first! The reference cartridge chambered nicely in my Uberti (your mileage may differ). I'm looking forward to loading them up.

Next, the incremental load test with the Serpent projectiles and a new rear bag rest. The bag I made from a polypropylene Outdoor Cushion cover from the SpotLight store discount bin - $10. It has a fine-tooth zip in one edge. Too big as bought, I cut a 3rd off and the family sewing machine came out to stitch up a new bottom seam. Then I raided the one and only bean bag in the house to stuff it with polystyrene beads. I didn't quite get enough beads in for the purpose and silly me I neglected to take a few extra to the range. The bag can be used on its side or end. It worked well enough but was a bit variable, would be much more consistent with a bit more fill. Next time!

I was delighted with the Incremental Load Test, but with some caveats. Repeatedly I had one of 3 shots notably slower or faster than the other two. Such 3-shot strings produced groups with two shots close together and one off to the side. If I had managed all three shots together there would be some pretty outstanding results here. Of course, it's hard to know what the actual cause of the one "flyer" actually is - shooter error? variation in powder charge? different projectile seating (neck tension/concentricity), or something else entirely. I've noted the first group's "flyer" as a clean bore, forgetting that in fact I had just fired 26 30-30 case forming charges through it. The bore did have time to cool right down however, as I did some handgun velocity testing first. So maybe 1st shot cold bore? All-in-all, with factory buckhorn sights at 50m I considered these results as good progress.

Next up is to produce some 5-6 shot groups with a chosen 2 or 3 loads. And do the last two or three charges from the max of 24gn upwards. Then there are other powders and other projectiles to consider. Can I have another 50 yrs please???

The new rear bag rest




Fireforming 30-30 to 38-55
Original 30-30, Fireformed 30-30, Twice Fired Starline Long 38-55, Loaded Starline reference cartridge, Loaded Fireformed 30-30 reference cartridge (Serpent 250gn Projectiles)
Note the fireformed 30-30 is fractionally shorter than the original 30-30 and significantly shorter than Starline



Incremental Load Test Results Day 2

Greetings @Jhon, akaroa1 and all,
Can some casting kit be far away. Always glad to see some hunters get excited over rifles and cartridges that were obsolescent (never obsolete) decades before we were born.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @Jhon, akaroa1 and all,
Can some casting kit be far away. Always glad to see some hunters get excited over rifles and cartridges that were obsolescent (never obsolete) decades before we were born.
Regards Grandpamac.

Haha, Greetings @grandpamac, yes an order is on its way. I've been threatening to roll my own for a long time. No excuses now...lol

To all friends of @Jhon,
Please keep an eye on him for me. A new rifle for a black powder capable cartridge was a warning sign as was starting bullet casting once the kit arrives. A move into loading with black powder may be next. If this progresses to talk of breech seating projectiles get him into rehab quick. If false muzzle enters his vocabulary and he starts shooting standing at 40 rods (200 metres) all hope is likely lost. But fear not he will be happy living in the last quarter of the 19th century, rubbing shoulders with the likes of Pope and others on the Creedmoor Range in New York.
Regards Grandpamac. @akaroa1. You may be halfway there on this.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

To all friends of @Jhon,
Please keep an eye on him for me. A new rifle for a black powder capable cartridge was a warning sign as was starting bullet casting once the kit arrives. A move into loading with black powder may be next. If this progresses to talk of breech seating projectiles get him into rehab quick. If false muzzle enters his vocabulary and he starts shooting standing at 40 rods (200 metres) all hope is likely lost. But fear not he will be happy living in the last quarter of the 19th century, rubbing shoulders with the likes of Pope and others on the Creedmoor Range in New York.
Regards Grandpamac. @akaroa1. You may be halfway there on this.

Bahaaaa, Fortunately I'm deeply allergic to BP, deeply. I'll just have be a pretender beneath the gaze of the throne.