Are we on the wrong 'No.1" criteria when scope buying?

I see a lot of self-tests done in this forum for scopes comparing their 'last light' image clarity...you know 'which scope could make out the tree closest to darkness'.

But I see bugger all scope tracking tests on this forum....why?

All that "glass, lenses, coatings, etc,"... the whole scope environment is purposefully shrouded in mystery and yet people claim to know, and be able to identify, 'the best' optic quality.

However, at a certain lens quality point I just can't tell the difference in optical clarity between scopes...and really is the last 5mins of light that important?

I can, however, reliably test the scope's mechanical adjustments at the range to see its tracking accuracy very objectively.

I think that in this age of laser rangefinders and dialing, the mechanical aspects of a scope are more important than the optical quality. It’s no use having great clarity in a scope if it doesn’t track correctly. However, it seems that people judge a scope (and one pays for), the optical clarity.
But a rifle scope without good turrets is just a telescope...therefore accurate turret dialing, I suggest, should be the most important and therefore most tested for aspect of a scope.
More scope tracking tests anyone? :thumbsup:

You are correct in saying the scope isn't worth a thing if it doesn't track accurartly but also the optics play a major role in the overall make up of the scope. That last five minutes could be the difference of taking a trophy of a lifetime or putting meat on the table.
Of the two I think dialling is more important by a margine but optics are right up there two.

In my experience, I feel animals are more active in the last 5 minutes of daylight. There’s not much point dialling when you can’t see the animal to shoot. However, there isn’t much point shooting at an animal that you can’t ethically kill if your scope can’t accurately dial. Maybe people should focus on hold over rather than dialling? However I prefer dialling, but rarely shoot over 300m where the error in dialling will have minimal effect.

I put up a EIR Tech report – tracking tests conducted using in-service military testing equipment.
On a Delta Stryker 4.5-30x56 FFP
Had to squeeze a pimple to get one comment – which was from you :-)
So – there you go
Back to the drawing board with ya

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....report*-68460/

Yeah. If you have to dial it's probably too far away:D.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shearer

Yeah. If you have to dial it's probably too far away:D.

---

I agree, say you do dial and shoot an animal at a considerable distance, how long is it going to take to retrieve the animal? Especially in the last 5 minutes of light.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Liam258

I agree, say you do dial and shoot an animal at a considerable distance, how long is it going to take to retrieve the animal? Especially in the last 5 minutes of light.

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I guess that's why there's a flashlight sticky too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shearer

I guess that's why there's a flashlight sticky too.

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Haha yep, although I have been caught out in the past walking by flash light trying to retrieve an animal on the other side of the valley and getting bluffed out. Although if it’s a trophy if a life time nothing would be stopping me from trying to retrieve it.

People just want different things. Dialing is certainly fashionable but not everyone is into it.

What people in this forum do not do is comparing scopes of the same class - scopes of similar price, weight, and magnification. The scopes Woody recently compared are essentially 4 different classes, not to mention not all of the same era. While it is a cool piece to read, it has little applicable value.

People in this forum tend to be hunters and weekend shooters. I know of not a single frequent poster who compete at the top level. So, for most people here, having access to several (mid to high end) scopes of the same class is simply too hard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

One issue that's never tested or reported in is reliability. But then I don't buy scopes to drop them into 6 feet of water, freeze them, hammer nails in, bend them and then heat them up and then check to see if they still work...

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If you watched one of duleys last episodes when the lass shooting a stag of a life time after seven days of hard core hunting ended up missing two easy shots because a scope got bent somehow and was shooting way low, you would have a totally different perspective about optics been able to be frozen shot at and hammer a spike in and not lose its Zero.
Obviously for that comment above you have never tripped and fallen on an optic or rolled down a scree slope bouncing fifle and optic to the bottom.
I would much rather have an optic that is not going to fail and have perfect adjustments no matter what you do to it.
Just saying......


Sent from my SM-A025F using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

People just want different things. Dialing is certainly fashionable but not everyone is into it.

What people in this forum do not do is comparing scopes of the same class - scopes of similar price, weight, and magnification. The scopes Woody recently compared are essentially 4 different classes, not to mention not all of the same era. While it is a cool piece to read, it has little applicable value.

People in this forum tend to be hunters and weekend shooters. I know of not a single frequent poster who compete at the top level. So, for most people here, having access to several (mid to high end) scopes of the same class is simply too hard.

---

I get to look through and compare a large amount of high-end scopes as well as set them up and shoot them.
I'm not shooting comps at the moment but have done my share in the early days of longrange comps.
I am definitely more inclined to go for optics that do not need to use the elevation correction factor in the apps and are repeatable and can take a knock and not worried about Poi shift.
If it's getting to last light I just clip on my Nv007s and your good to go!

Sent from my SM-A025F using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andyanimal31

If you watched one of duleys last episodes when the lass shooting a stag of a life time after seven days of hard core hunting ended up missing two easy shots because a scope got bent somehow and was shooting way low, you would have a totally different perspective about optics been able to be frozen shot at and hammer a spike in and not lose its Zero.

---

I think we all understand Nightforce hardiness in the field. Unfortunately for many of us it is an unaffordable luxury way outside what we’d pay for a rifle, scope and accessories combined. For me that doesn’t seem to affect the amount of animals I shoot. I do well with cheapish gear.

Nightforce scopes are undeniably tough, but they are not infallible, nor is any brand. Shit happens.

What is an unacceptable risk for me is Nightforce’s limited liability warranty. Like most premium manufacturers, they will not cover accidental damage. Considering how they market their product as being the toughest, and how much they cost, you think they’d be there for you if the unthinkable happened. But they’re not. And to me, the thought of $4000+ being at risk to something as simple as being dropped, that’s untenable.

I get what you’re saying about the hunt of a lifetime and so on and so forth. But most of us are hunting reasonably regularly, and not on a hunt of a lifetime, and consequently if there is a gear failure there is always the next time to make up for it. Like I say, shit happens.

What happened in the NZ Hunter episode was incredibly unfortunate and I think it was admirable that Greg manned up and showed the episode warts and all. Especially considering what he told us directly on this forum about the rifle having been dropped and no one owning up to it, which is really uncool. But what none of us could ever possibly know, is whether a Nightforce scope would have survived that incident unscathed. We just don’t know. Probably, possibly, maybe not. We don’t know and never will.

Shit happens!

Well from reading these replies, I've reached a conclusion that hardly anyone actually dials their scopes when out shooting!

Seems like most hunters are just using MPBR....."1 1/2 inches high at 100yds and that will do it".

I suspect very few of the forum members are actually carrying rangefinders.....therefore no rangefinder = no dialing. And if you are not dialing then you would not be interested in accurate turret tracking tests...."Just give me a good optical clarity at 5 minutes before dark test".

I'm always on my rangefinder and turrets....but then I'm not hunting in the bush.
How many members actually dial their scopes and use rangefinders?

ok so here is my IDEAL SCOPE...... magnification either fixed 4x or something like 2-7
large rear eye box..never realized how important this was till had 3 M8 4x scopes and compared them...the oldest,longest,biggest,heaviest is far and away the best.
doest shift poi over time or usage.....my leupolds hold zero period.....I dont dial so this is more important than ease of dialing....1/2" Vs 1/4" per click irrelevant IF you remember which it is.
good Xhairs....KISS principle here....duplex or post n rail that stops as rail....do like the circle around inner hairs found on some,or two dots on lower hair...no more than that much clutter.
FIELD OF VIEW...for a bush hobbit this is paramount....the four pigs I shot in under 10 seconds last week proove this out.at the 50 yards range ,I NEEDED quick target acquisition,EG you cant shoot what isnt in scope ,had mates with flash top end scopes who couldnt find deer in the tight bush in scope or track hopping wallaby as field of view was just too narrow.

bullet/knock/fog/shock/ME proof would be absolutely perfect but leupolds lifetime guarantee takes care of that...FOR ME.

how many have open sights as back up???? AND HAVE EVER NEEDED TO USE THEM????? or taken scope off to use them???.......
how many could if needed????
I THOUGHT I could but failed miserably....hadnt tried them first off.

A lot of assumptions going on here!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by andyanimal31

A lot of assumptions going on here!

Sent from my SM-A025F using Tapatalk

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:wtfsmilie:

What?

I was hoping this thread would not turn into a 'Pro/Con Nightforce one' ...... (now that is an assumption)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flyblown

I think we all understand Nightforce hardiness in the field. Unfortunately for many of us it is an unaffordable luxury way outside what we’d pay for a rifle, scope and accessories combined. For me that doesn’t seem to affect the amount of animals I shoot. I do well with cheapish gear.

Nightforce scopes are undeniably tough, but they are not infallible, nor is any brand. Shit happens.

What is an unacceptable risk for me is Nightforce’s limited liability warranty. Like most premium manufacturers, they will not cover accidental damage. Considering how they market their product as being the toughest, and how much they cost, you think they’d be there for you if the unthinkable happened. But they’re not. And to me, the thought of $4000+ being at risk to something as simple as being dropped, that’s untenable.

I get what you’re saying about the hunt of a lifetime and so on and so forth. But most of us are hunting reasonably regularly, and not on a hunt of a lifetime, and consequently if there is a gear failure there is always the next time to make up for it. Like I say, shit happens.

What happened in the NZ Hunter episode was incredibly unfortunate and I think it was admirable that Greg manned up and showed the episode warts and all. Especially considering what he told us directly on this forum about the rifle having been dropped and no one owning up to it, which is really uncool. But what none of us could ever possibly know, is whether a Nightforce scope would have survived that incident unscathed. We just don’t know. Probably, possibly, maybe not. We don’t know and never will.

Shit happens!

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Just a note that I would pretty much guarantee that if a nf was damaged through an accident it would be sorted.
Re the bloke on here that by total accident destroyed his coatings on his big nf.
It got sent back to client no charge all damaged lenses replaced.
Not to bad I reckon.
Some of you may not have noticed but nf have reduced their prices in nz as well.
We all might not be taking shots at once in a life time animal but I'm sure as hell never want to doubt my scope in almost all situations when hunting ethically and trusting my gear to perform to my expectation.

Sent from my SM-A025F using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hermitage

:wtfsmilie:

What?

I was hoping this thread would not turn into a 'Pro/Con Nightforce one' ...... (now that is an assumption)

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It's not about pros and cons,
It's about what traits are you looking for in an optic.
If it's about accurate tracking there are several scope brands besides nf that can do this.
If you want ruggedness with reliability your scope choice got a whole lot smaller.
Just saying.......

Sent from my SM-A025F using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andyanimal31

Just a note that I would pretty much guarantee that if a nf was damaged through an accident it would be sorted.
Re the bloke on here that by total accident destroyed his coatings on his big nf.
It got sent back to client no charge all damaged lenses replaced.
Not to bad I reckon.
Some of you may not have noticed but nf have reduced their prices in nz as well.
We all might not be taking shots at once in a life time animal but I'm sure as hell never want to doubt my scope in almost all situations when hunting ethically and trusting my gear to perform to my expectation.

Sent from my SM-A025F using Tapatalk

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Dude @andyanimal31 , like I said I want this thread to be about dialing vs glass as the number 1 criteria for scope purchase... NOT about Nightforce scopes which we all know you LOVE

Yes Nightforce are great for clarity and mechanical quality....accepted by all.

However most of us don't have the money to partake....

But thankyou 'fanboyNF' for you imput. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hermitage

Dude @andyanimal31 , like I said I want this thread to be about dialing vs glass as the number 1 criteria for scope purchase... NOT about Nightforce scopes which we all know you LOVE

Yes Nightforce are great for clarity and mechanical quality....accepted by all.

However most of us don't have the money to partake....

But thankyou 'fanboyNF' for you imput. :D

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Just trying to make you see reason!
Ok I will play your game.
Tracking first glass second.

Sent from my SM-A025F using Tapatalk

Just Saying .... :)

My opinion is the number one priority is holding zero over many shots, hot, cold, knocks and "sh@t happens" within reason.

Number two is that next time you go to fire at an animal, the shots still go where they did when you sighted it in 2 years ago.



Nice to haves: light weight and slim profile specially the ocular, clarity, eyebox, KISS reticle, eyebox, low light visibility, clicks move what they're supposed to when sighting in (covered caps)

For special applications: Dialling, FFP, holdover reticle, illumination but as noted these are mostly useful only for longer range hunting, for field target use or if you've got as low velocity cartridge. You will know if you need them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andyanimal31

Just trying to make you see reason!
Ok I will play your game.
Tracking first glass second.

Sent from my SM-A025F using Tapatalk

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No that's wrong you see?
Because if the majority of hunters at NOT using rangefinders then they are not dialing....which means that lens clarity/glass would be more important (the number 1 criteria) for them.

So turret accuracy is only the #1 criteria for those that dial.

The question now is how many hunters actually dial or just MPBR?

sub 300 yards in good light NEITHER MATTER a hoot on zeroed rifle...... at 30yards in bush on moving animal......even less. see average range where animals are shot thread.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

Just Saying .... :)

My opinion is the number one priority is holding zero over many shots, hot, cold, knocks and "sh@t happens" within reason.

Number two is that next time you go to fire at an animal, the shots still go where they did when you sighted it in 2 years ago.



Nice to haves: light weight and slim profile specially the ocular, clarity, eyebox, KISS reticle, eyebox, low light visibility, clicks move what they're supposed to when sighting in (covered caps)

For special applications: Dialling, FFP, holdover reticle, illumination but as noted these are mostly useful only for longer range hunting, for field target use or if you've got as low velocity cartridge. You will know if you need them.

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Come on 'Holding Zero' as your #1 criteria ??

Holding zero is a given. The scope WILL hold zero if it has great glass and great tracking.
It's only between tracking and glass NOT 'holding bloody zero' :pissed off: :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

sub 300 yards in good light NEITHER MATTER a hoot on zeroed rifle...... at 30yards in bush on moving animal......even less. see average range where animals are shot thread.....

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Yes 'MD'

We all know that you are not a 'long range shooter'.....what with your love of Leupold 4x and the 270.

We know most animals are shot under 30 yards....BUT we don't care!

We want to know we can take the long shot IF required.

ouch...now I remember why you are on ignore list....Im too old n ornary to put up with impolite ignoramusus who argue a point for sake of argument itself.
diferent strokes for diferent folks...just because someone holds a differing view to your own doesnt mean they are WRONG.
I politely suggest you re-read title of thread...... what is important is PERSONAL and matters to HOW and WHERE and WHEN you hunt...
oh and the 270 has taken deer over 300 yards,only a handful over 350...but it has happened single round each...BUT JUST LIKE SCOPE CHOICE its a personal thing and what turns you on doesnt do it for me.
tomorrow Im going for bush stalk with a good mate,single shot rifle with open sights that I KNOW is good for 75 yards.... I am NO LESS ethically prepared, to shoot deer in my given parameters, than some flash Harry with 5K of gear who can twiddle n fiddle, and shoots nuts of a gnat at 800 yards in howling NW wind.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

ouch...now I remember why you are on ignore list....Im too old n ornary to put up with impolite ignoramusus who argue a point for sake of argument itself.
diferent strokes for diferent folks...just because someone holds a differing view to your own doesnt mean they are WRONG.
I politely suggest you re-read title of thread...... what is important is PERSONAL and matters to HOW and WHERE and WHEN you hunt...
oh and the 270 has taken deer over 300 yards,only a handful over 350...but it has happened single round each...BUT JUST LIKE SCOPE CHOICE its a personal thing and what turns you on doesnt do it for me.
tomorrow Im going for bush stalk with a good mate,single shot rifle with open sights that I KNOW is good for 75 yards.... I am NO LESS ethically prepared, to shoot deer in my given parameters, than some flash Harry with 5K of gear who can twiddle n fiddle, and shoots nuts of a gnat at 800 yards in howling NW wind.....

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Wow....your post makes little sense and I am 'too' middle aged to try to understand it.
Seriously please keep me on your 'blocked list'....thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hermitage

Well from reading these replies, I've reached a conclusion that hardly anyone actually dials their scopes when out shooting!

Seems like most hunters are just using MPBR....."1 1/2 inches high at 100yds and that will do it".

I suspect very few of the forum members are actually carrying rangefinders.....therefore no rangefinder = no dialing. And if you are not dialing then you would not be interested in accurate turret tracking tests...."Just give me a good optical clarity at 5 minutes before dark test".

I'm always on my rangefinder and turrets....but then I'm not hunting in the bush.
How many members actually dial their scopes and use rangefinders?

---

I do dial at the range and I am comfortable shooting sub moa at 600 yards, however it’s the wind that gets me. Hence I opt for closer shots when out in the field because I feel I can’t ethically kill at that range unless it is a dead calm day. Until I feel more confident judging wind, 300-400 is my limit. Maybe a kestrel will be my next purchase.

I always carry a rangefinder on me and have taken shots between 500-600 yards when the weather conditions are in my favour. Also think it’s important to carry a range finder because in some terrain it is hard to judge distances.

What ranges do you generally shoot at @Hermitage?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Liam258

I do dial at the range and I am comfortable shooting sub moa at 600 yards, however it’s the wind that gets me. Hence I opt for closer shots when out in the field because I feel I can’t ethically kill at that range unless it is a dead calm day. Until I feel more confident judging wind, 300-400 is my limit. Maybe a kestrel will be my next purchase.

I always carry a rangefinder on me and have taken shots between 500-600 yards when the weather conditions are in my favour. Also think it’s important to carry a range finder because in some terrain it is hard to judge distances.

What ranges do you generally shoot at @Hermitage?

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I have a 6.5 creedmore heavy barrelled rifle that I use with a Sightron SIII 10-50x60.

It's on rabbits to 700 yards so dialing accuracy is my number #1 criteria, which the SIII it gives.

But yes it is the wind that is the constraint to dialing effectiveness....even with Kelstal at hand.

how many rabbits do you gut shoot,to crawl away to die at 700 yards??? you will be getting zero expansion with 6.5 projectile hitting that little resistance.....no different to 30/30 at 50 yards so YES I do know what Im saying is correct.chest/shoulder/head or spine will be instant humain death,anywhere else,guts,legs will be slow and lingering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

how many rabbits do you gut shoot,to crawl away to die at 700 yards??? you will be getting zero expansion with 6.5 projectile hitting that little resistance.....no different to 30/30 at 50 yards so YES I do know what Im saying is correct.chest/shoulder/head or spine will be instant humain death,anywhere else,guts,legs will be slow and lingering.

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Dude I still don't understand your posts...they don't make sense to me. Must be a 'personal' thing aye MD??
So....alright then...if you still don't bloke me....you win.
I will bloke you....so have a good night.

block...perchance???? whats not to understand??? what you saying you are doing is likely to lead to wounded animals....
nothing BLOKE like going on here. have a good life.

45/70 ... Pistol green dot ... 100 mtrs max no dialing obviously .

Short barrel 308 bushpig .... If I know there may be open areas out to 250 mtrs max will carry range finder , may or may not use it as I'm crap at estimating distance , again may dial simply for peace of mind if distance far enough that I ranged .

338 Lapua Maggie .... Only used when I know area open and will require long distance shot . Always range and dial .

All my rifles are taken to the range semi regularly to check zero and 338 always taken out to longer ranges to check dialling accurate .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flyblown

I think we all understand Nightforce hardiness in the field. Unfortunately for many of us it is an unaffordable luxury way outside what we’d pay for a rifle, scope and accessories combined. For me that doesn’t seem to affect the amount of animals I shoot. I do well with cheapish gear.

Nightforce scopes are undeniably tough, but they are not infallible, nor is any brand. Shit happens.

What is an unacceptable risk for me is Nightforce’s limited liability warranty. Like most premium manufacturers, they will not cover accidental damage. Considering how they market their product as being the toughest, and how much they cost, you think they’d be there for you if the unthinkable happened. But they’re not. And to me, the thought of $4000+ being at risk to something as simple as being dropped, that’s untenable.

I get what you’re saying about the hunt of a lifetime and so on and so forth. But most of us are hunting reasonably regularly, and not on a hunt of a lifetime, and consequently if there is a gear failure there is always the next time to make up for it. Like I say, shit happens.

What happened in the NZ Hunter episode was incredibly unfortunate and I think it was admirable that Greg manned up and showed the episode warts and all. Especially considering what he told us directly on this forum about the rifle having been dropped and no one owning up to it, which is really uncool. But what none of us could ever possibly know, is whether a Nightforce scope would have survived that incident unscathed. We just don’t know. Probably, possibly, maybe not. We don’t know and never will.

Shit happens!

---

Good Points Flyblown. What I cant understand regarding scope (and rifle) use is why no one adds any protection. All scopes would be a lot more impact resistant with another four or five hundred grams of Ali added to the scope tube like a Night force or S&B. Shave that weight off them and they are likely no better than anything else
We put a helmet on our noggin and a Bullbar on our utes when the going gets rough but dont do much to protect scopes.
I have a Z5 swaro, I dont want to knock it around so I have a double thickness of Pushbike tube over the objective and back to the Turrets. Then I have a shaped flap of car tube rubber cable tied over the Turrets, draped from the front. Protects it very well from knocks and snagging, who cares about appearance, I am not a 'look at my gear person'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

ok so here is my IDEAL SCOPE...... magnification either fixed 4x or something like 2-7
large rear eye box..never realized how important this was till had 3 M8 4x scopes and compared them...the oldest,longest,biggest,heaviest is far and away the best.
doest shift poi over time or usage.....my leupolds hold zero period.....I dont dial so this is more important than ease of dialing....1/2" Vs 1/4" per click irrelevant IF you remember which it is.
good Xhairs....KISS principle here....duplex or post n rail that stops as rail....do like the circle around inner hairs found on some,or two dots on lower hair...no more than that much clutter.
FIELD OF VIEW...for a bush hobbit this is paramount....the four pigs I shot in under 10 seconds last week proove this out.at the 50 yards range ,I NEEDED quick target acquisition,EG you cant shoot what isnt in scope ,had mates with flash top end scopes who couldnt find deer in the tight bush in scope or track hopping wallaby as field of view was just too narrow.

bullet/knock/fog/shock/ME proof would be absolutely perfect but leupolds lifetime guarantee takes care of that...FOR ME.

---

I wager @Micky Duck that if you were to try one of those 1.5 - 9 x 45 Deltas, you would be converted. The reticle is really really fast 'target acquired'

Here's a tracking test with a $300 Leapers scope.
This scope has all the features: dialling, parallax, SFP mil dot reticle (calibratd at 10x), illumination, rated for spring airguns.

The scope on a JW15 Norinco 22 :
Attachment 172939

Here's a tracking test target:
Attachment 172938


Here's calculations showing the percent error (adjustment factor needed):
Attachment 172937

and just for good measure a test at different magnifications:
Attachment 172936


Photos reposted from an earlier thread, now I've paid ransom to Photobucket.
Can't complain - they hosted them free for years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

I wager @Micky Duck that if you were to try one of those 1.5 - 9 x 45 Deltas, you would be converted. The reticle is really really fast 'target acquired'

---

I reckon you would be right....but my budget doest stretch that far so will "make do" with my loopies LOL.

Yeah I like to see tracking tests like this....more than the 'sun going down' optics tests.

But then I'm into the long-range shooting... the precision, the great mechanical tracking accuracy of the scope.

Depends if you are a MPBR sort of hunter (so glass optics clarity is your #1 criteria and dialing accuracy just doesn't matter).
Or a dialing of turrets sort of hunter (whereas dialing accuracy is your #1 criteria followed by the glass carity)

Just to play devils advocate for a minute.

The adjustments accuracy are kind of irrelevant once drop is validated.

And you dont need to dial if you cant see what you are aiming at.