Thread: The WORST Firearm You Ever Owned

So your up to 1000 bucks if you can do it yourself you can get a good accurate 22 for less than that that would shoot well out of the box but that's a topic for another thread i think

Originally Posted by northdude

So your up to 1000 bucks if you can do it yourself you can get a good accurate 22 for less than that that would shoot well out of the box but that's a topic for another thread i think

Firstly, I consider new factory basic 10/22 at 600 for wood and blue version and 700 for plastic and stainless version, to be overpriced. I would never recommend that to anyone. I certainly did not buy one at that price. But that is not the point of debate.

Secondly, despite new 10/22s are overpriced, 400 to make it accurate is actually not bad at all. the appealof 10/22 is the non-protruding 10 round mag, tolerance for any and all ammos, and the easy assembly. There are cheaper semis, sure, but most of them are more picky and less reliable.

If it were not so, 10/22 would not have been the best selling semi 22.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

If it were not so, 10/22 would not have been the best selling semi 22.

IIRC the Marlin 60 has outsold it about 2 to 1 over the years.

Probably because its reliable too, but you don't need to double the cost of the rifle with aftermarket parts to make it accurate.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

IIRC the Marlin 60 has outsold it about 2 to 1 over the years.

Probably because its reliable too, but you don't need to double the cost of the rifle with aftermarket parts to make it accurate.

Correct. The Marlin has well outsold the Ruger and is generally accurate and ready to go out of the box. When I wanted a semi I checked rimfirecentral and did a search on Marlin and Ruger. The Marlin came out on top for accuracy and anyone who had both tended to take the Marlin hunting because of that.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

IIRC the Marlin 60 has outsold it about 2 to 1 over the years.

In the States, sure. the reason I suspect is that Marlin is a lot cheaper and it is almost mandatory for everyone to have a gun. Many gun owners just pick one reasonable gun for the least amount of money and do not care for anything else. (In a similar vein, JW15 outsells the marlin 980 in New Zealand too, but I digress.)

In New Zealand, I believe 10/22 is the best selling semi. my unscientific methods that took me to this conclusion include:
1, observation of 1022 ownership vs 60 ownership in shooting clubs, ranges and hunters I come across.
2, observation number of rifles for sell in Reloaders, Guncity, Serious Shooter.
3, observation number of rifles offered on trademe. see below

TradeMe.co.nz - 10/22 ruger for sale, New Zealand

TradeMe.co.nz - marlin 60 for sale, New Zealand

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Probably because its reliable too, but you don't need to double the cost of the rifle with aftermarket parts to make it accurate.

I believe the general consensus is that Marlin is more accurate than Ruger out of the factory, but less tolerant to different ammo and slightly less reliable.

Dont get me wrong, I am not at all saying Marlin is a bad gun or that 10/22 is a better gun. In fact I think I have said several times that current price for 10/22 is more than its worth (and I would nto necessarily say the same about Marlin 60). My point simply goes to it does not cost twice the 10/22 to make it shoot accurately.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

In the States, sure. the reason I suspect is that Marlin is a lot cheaper and it is almost mandatory for everyone to have a gun. Many gun owners just pick one reasonable gun for the least amount of money and do not care for anything else. (In a similar vein, JW15 outsells the marlin 980 in New Zealand too, but I digress.)

In New Zealand, I believe 10/22 is the best selling semi. my unscientific methods that took me to this conclusion include:
1, observation of 1022 ownership vs 60 ownership in shooting clubs, ranges and hunters I come across.
2, observation number of rifles for sell in Reloaders, Guncity, Serious Shooter.
3, observation number of rifles offered on trademe. see below

TradeMe.co.nz - 10/22 ruger for sale, New Zealand

TradeMe.co.nz - marlin 60 for sale, New Zealand




I believe the general consensus is that Marlin is more accurate than Ruger out of the factory, but less tolerant to different ammo and slightly less reliable.

Dont get me wrong, I am not at all saying Marlin is a bad gun or that 10/22 is a better gun. In fact I think I have said several times that current price for 10/22 is more than its worth (and I would nto necessarily say the same about Marlin 60). My point simply goes to it does not cost twice the 10/22 to make it shoot accurately.

In the states they are all cheaper and many people buy a lot of firearms.

The reason so many gun shops sell so many Rugers is likely that they will make more money from them, through the initial sale and then through the menu of upgrades that are required to make it do what it should out of the box. Picking just the NZ market is not good practice as we are very small and affected more by supply (availability), advertising and tradition.

The ammo tolerance is a bit of a red herring. You always want to find out what your rifle (centrefire and rimfire) likes the best and use that. Point of impact will tend to shift if you change ammo, though if your grouping is not that great it may not be noticed.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

My point simply goes to it does not cost twice the 10/22 to make it shoot accurately.

If i was buying a 10-22 with the intention of rebarreling it I don't think I'd start with a new one, I'd buy a tidy second hand one. Let's say $400, it's what new ones were going for not that long ago.

Add the $400 you said a barrel costs, plus whatever a gunsmith charges to fit it... You've more than doubled the cost, and that's before you even think about the horrible trigger.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

Firstly, I consider new factory basic 10/22 at 600 for wood and blue version and 700 for plastic and stainless version, to be overpriced. I would never recommend that to anyone. I certainly did not buy one at that price. But that is not the point of debate.

Secondly, despite new 10/22s are overpriced, 400 to make it accurate is actually not bad at all. the appeal of 10/22 is the non-protruding 10 round mag, tolerance for any and all ammos, and the easy assembly. There are cheaper semis, sure, but most of them are more picky and less reliable.

If it were not so, 10/22 would not have been the best selling semi 22.

The design of the ruger 10/22 is practical and effective. Well though out and the 10 round flush mag really tops it off. Problem is over the years the quality has fallen away significantly. They used to be one of the cheapest semi autos on the market and one of the better ones at the same time, but their manufacturing processes changed in the late 80s, early 90s and they got progressively worse. They still sell on name alone as for the most part they are still a very good design. But there are better semi autos out there at similar prices now, and and the choice is improving. For a better semi you could look at pretty much any other semi auto and for out of the box accuracy pretty much any other 22.....But most 22s are not as easy to alter, "pimp up" taylor to an individuals desire. New stocks, barrels, add ons etc are predominantly made for the 10/22. (and it could be argued these add ons are popular because the rifle is disappointing without them)

As for price, they were about $400 in the early 90s when I got mine new, then they climbed gradually to around $800 in the early 2000s. About 05 /06 when the US dollar climbed to 80c NZ we started to see them come in again around the $400-$450 mark and recently they have started to climb towards the $600 mark again. (Some are dearer depending on what add ons and where you buy them....)

I like their design for the take down, and the rifle itself. But the last one I owned had its best group of around 12 inches at 25 yards....!!!!!!!!!!! I have seen them do 1/2 and 1 inch groups at 50 but mine was not able to. Consistency in manufacture has let Ruger down big time.

must be one of the few rifles out there that you buy brand new and straight away have to put another barrel on it to get what you wanted in the first place

Originally Posted by northdude

must be one of the few rifles out there that you buy brand new and straight away have to put another barrel on it to get what you wanted in the first place

Almost everyone I know in Birkenhead rifle club modifies their CZ452's trigger as soon as they buy the gun. Does that make CZ452 a bad gun? Surely not. It just means it is not a local competition level gun out of the box.

One of the best shooters I know shoots an Annie 17xx, he replaced the factory walnut stock with an almost identical looking 1000 dollar fibreglass stock for improved rigidity. Does that mean Annies come with bad stock?

The vast majority of 10/22 owners are actually content with its barrel and poor out of box accuracy. But for those who want the ruger tolerance, rotary mag and reliability, but not the out of box accuracy, they choose to upgrade the barrel.

Got an old Annie 1415 M54 target shooter, that is still in the original stock.
Shoots much better than I can - haven't bothered hunting with it - weighs a 'ton'.
Depends on what you're looking for.
Was given a Stirling M1400 (Phillipino manufacture), shot inside the 9 ring on a 10/1 target at 25 yds (old indoor range).
Adequate for 'minute of rabbit' to 40M, crap for anything outside 40M.

Mine would have to be a savage axis in 7mm 08, bloody useless rifle

Marlin 60 microgroove entered production 1960, and Sturm Ruger first produced 10/22 about 1964. Marlin 60 biggest selling 22 of any kind in history with 13m sold. Ruger 10/22 has sold 6 million. Someone in NZ had import licensing for the Ruger in the 60s/70s, but other better semis like the Marlin 60, Remington 552 and some of the Euros simply weren't imported. Very hard to get licencing in the old days.

As a rimfire hobbist have bench and field tested dozens of makes and models over the decades. We had about six 10/22s over time - nice little unit but consistently let down by poor accuracy. All 10/22s tested between 1-2" for repeatable groups at 50m, averaging around 1.5". That is the least accurate 22 overall that I have tested. Best Ruger 10/22 (looking at my records) at 50m averaged 1.04" for four best groups. Note you never rely on single best groups shot last whenever - they never tell a rifle's story. Pulling the 10/22s down, inaccuracies principally due to one or more of: loose chambering, poor barrel connections, poor rifling. Slugging the barrel in some rugers (pushing a 22 slug down barrel) showed rifling very uneven and bullet almost fell down some sections before engaging tight rifling at end. Ruger would not handle any and all ammos - good with some, poor with other brands as with all semiautos, and mags would clog with blowback debris under heavy use.

Best wee Ruger 22 tested was the model 96 lever action. Same style and mag, but very quick lever, and surprisingly accurate at 0.7s at 50m. Absolute jewel - cracker of a wee hunter. No weaknesses.

Marlin semis broke my own 30 year prejudice against semiautomatics!! I first bought a model 60, and it was so accurate I thought it must be an oddity. I then proceeded to buy and test about twelve model 60s, 70s, 75, 795s, a 7000, and 990s etc and a couple of 925 bolts. Marlin microgroove 22s very accurate - in fact from over 100 sporter rimfires of all makes and models, two Marlin 60s hold the record with me for 5 shot group averages at 50m. Both model 60s - a 1998 and a recent 2012 60DLX shot 1/4" groups at best at 50m, and one rifle averaged 0.29" for 4 groups, while the other averaged 0.39". Stunning performance from standard barrel sporter. Very basic rifles with good barrels. All of the Marlin semis averaged well under 1", with almost all sub 0.5" at best except the two model 70s. Could not accurize them - some production issue with that odd model. Marlin very reliable if you do three things - run them clean, run them nearly dry (just one drop of oil on bolt only), and with all CCI ammos. Fat little CCI round engages Microgroove rifling well.

Both Marlin and Ruger triggers heavy as required ex-factory for US market. Ruger trigger easier to work on than Marlin but either can be adjusted with not too much time/cost. Mcarbo produce a spring and trigger blade set for the marlins which has triggers running beautifully. Various other options also - lots with ruger.

My 70s ruger 10/22 alot better made than recent ones. In earlier times (local gunsmith mate advises me) Ruger were outsourcing barrels and some they bought were good makes eg Shilen - which made for occasional more accurate 10/22s out there. With marlin also the pre 2009 New Haven Ct models were better made than the Kentucky ones after Remington purchased company. Initial quality issues with Rem production apparently are now being resolved.

The difference between them is accuracy. I would not expect anyone to have to immediately rebarrel any sporter 22 to achieve consistently grouping, and I would not recommend 10/22 for any new shooter, or any field shooter prizing accuracy. We did also have an aftermarket highly modded 10/22 with Green mountain/VQ components etc (someone had spent over $1200) but only the original trigger blade remained - it was no longer a ruger.

Did a comparison of common semiauto 22s for a hunting magazine a while back - ammo testing them, then group tests off the bench at 50m. The rifles included Toz 99, Ruger 10/22, Marlins 60 and 795. In short the marlins were vastly better on the range - was a relief coming back to them after shooting the others. Model 60 averaged 0.29", and model 795 about 0.57" . And to my surprise the two marlins proved also most reliable in test.

As stock rifles a Marlin 60 if available or a 795/795SS is easily the better rifle - precise, accurate 100m shooters. Be cautious about old 60s off trademe - may need a new spring set from Mcarbo. If you do see a 10/22 that has had a Whistlepig (nice barrels) etc done to it, it could be worth buying at the right price.

Someone pass the popcorn please

Originally Posted by northdude

Someone pass the popcorn please

Here ya go.