Thread: The WORST Firearm You Ever Owned

Originally Posted by northdude

So your up to 1000 bucks if you can do it yourself you can get a good accurate 22 for less than that that would shoot well out of the box but that's a topic for another thread i think

Firstly, I consider new factory basic 10/22 at 600 for wood and blue version and 700 for plastic and stainless version, to be overpriced. I would never recommend that to anyone. I certainly did not buy one at that price. But that is not the point of debate.

Secondly, despite new 10/22s are overpriced, 400 to make it accurate is actually not bad at all. the appealof 10/22 is the non-protruding 10 round mag, tolerance for any and all ammos, and the easy assembly. There are cheaper semis, sure, but most of them are more picky and less reliable.

If it were not so, 10/22 would not have been the best selling semi 22.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

If it were not so, 10/22 would not have been the best selling semi 22.

IIRC the Marlin 60 has outsold it about 2 to 1 over the years.

Probably because its reliable too, but you don't need to double the cost of the rifle with aftermarket parts to make it accurate.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

IIRC the Marlin 60 has outsold it about 2 to 1 over the years.

Probably because its reliable too, but you don't need to double the cost of the rifle with aftermarket parts to make it accurate.

Correct. The Marlin has well outsold the Ruger and is generally accurate and ready to go out of the box. When I wanted a semi I checked rimfirecentral and did a search on Marlin and Ruger. The Marlin came out on top for accuracy and anyone who had both tended to take the Marlin hunting because of that.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

IIRC the Marlin 60 has outsold it about 2 to 1 over the years.

In the States, sure. the reason I suspect is that Marlin is a lot cheaper and it is almost mandatory for everyone to have a gun. Many gun owners just pick one reasonable gun for the least amount of money and do not care for anything else. (In a similar vein, JW15 outsells the marlin 980 in New Zealand too, but I digress.)

In New Zealand, I believe 10/22 is the best selling semi. my unscientific methods that took me to this conclusion include:
1, observation of 1022 ownership vs 60 ownership in shooting clubs, ranges and hunters I come across.
2, observation number of rifles for sell in Reloaders, Guncity, Serious Shooter.
3, observation number of rifles offered on trademe. see below

TradeMe.co.nz - 10/22 ruger for sale, New Zealand

TradeMe.co.nz - marlin 60 for sale, New Zealand

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Probably because its reliable too, but you don't need to double the cost of the rifle with aftermarket parts to make it accurate.

I believe the general consensus is that Marlin is more accurate than Ruger out of the factory, but less tolerant to different ammo and slightly less reliable.

Dont get me wrong, I am not at all saying Marlin is a bad gun or that 10/22 is a better gun. In fact I think I have said several times that current price for 10/22 is more than its worth (and I would nto necessarily say the same about Marlin 60). My point simply goes to it does not cost twice the 10/22 to make it shoot accurately.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

In the States, sure. the reason I suspect is that Marlin is a lot cheaper and it is almost mandatory for everyone to have a gun. Many gun owners just pick one reasonable gun for the least amount of money and do not care for anything else. (In a similar vein, JW15 outsells the marlin 980 in New Zealand too, but I digress.)

In New Zealand, I believe 10/22 is the best selling semi. my unscientific methods that took me to this conclusion include:
1, observation of 1022 ownership vs 60 ownership in shooting clubs, ranges and hunters I come across.
2, observation number of rifles for sell in Reloaders, Guncity, Serious Shooter.
3, observation number of rifles offered on trademe. see below

TradeMe.co.nz - 10/22 ruger for sale, New Zealand

TradeMe.co.nz - marlin 60 for sale, New Zealand




I believe the general consensus is that Marlin is more accurate than Ruger out of the factory, but less tolerant to different ammo and slightly less reliable.

Dont get me wrong, I am not at all saying Marlin is a bad gun or that 10/22 is a better gun. In fact I think I have said several times that current price for 10/22 is more than its worth (and I would nto necessarily say the same about Marlin 60). My point simply goes to it does not cost twice the 10/22 to make it shoot accurately.

In the states they are all cheaper and many people buy a lot of firearms.

The reason so many gun shops sell so many Rugers is likely that they will make more money from them, through the initial sale and then through the menu of upgrades that are required to make it do what it should out of the box. Picking just the NZ market is not good practice as we are very small and affected more by supply (availability), advertising and tradition.

The ammo tolerance is a bit of a red herring. You always want to find out what your rifle (centrefire and rimfire) likes the best and use that. Point of impact will tend to shift if you change ammo, though if your grouping is not that great it may not be noticed.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

In the states they are all cheaper and many people buy a lot of firearms.

in the States Malin 60 is about 160 while 10/22 is about 260, quite a big difference. here I think the difference is about 15%.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

The reason so many gun shops sell so many Rugers is likely that they will make more money from them,

That must mean 10/22 is more popular then, if people are more willing to pay a bigger profit to the shops than Marlin. In fact more shops stock them should lead to more competition and therefore lower profit for 10/22 than Marlin.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

Picking just the NZ market is not good practice as we are very small and affected more by supply (availability), advertising and tradition.

I am not trying to decide which rifle should win the "rifle of the century" award. I am just saying 10/22 is the most popular semi 22 in New Zealand. For better or for worse people like it more here than the Marlin, it is that simple.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

The ammo tolerance is a bit of a red herring. You always want to find out what your rifle (centrefire and rimfire) likes the best and use that. Point of impact will tend to shift if you change ammo, though if your grouping is not that great it may not be noticed.

Not everyone does that, plenty of people do not shoot enough or care enough to find the best ammo. What they do is grab whatever they see and shoot for the weekend, then 6 month later go do shoot at a different place and buy some more last minute ammo. You may not care for ammo tolerance. That is completely fine (in fact, I personally do not either as all I shoot is CCI subs or SV). But there are many who find ammo intolerance annoying.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

in the States Malin 60 is about 160 while 10/22 is about 260, quite a big difference. here I think the difference is about 15%.

And in the US the Marlin greatly out sells the Marlin. As said it is more an availability and marketing issue here.

That must mean 10/22 is more popular then, if people are more willing to pay a bigger profit to the shops than Marlin. In fact more shops stock them should lead to more competition and therefore lower profit for 10/22 than Marlin.

No. It just means that the shops push the Ruger more in order to make more money.

We used to mainly buy British cars here. Was it because they were great? No, they leaked oil, most needed a recondition at about 80,000km, ... It was because it was all that was available due to trade agreements.

I am not trying to decide which rifle should win the "rifle of the century" award. I am just saying 10/22 is the most popular semi 22 in New Zealand. For better or for worse people like it more here than the Marlin, it is that simple.

Again, they just hear more about the Ruger because of marketing and tradition. But only here.

Not everyone does that, plenty of people do not shoot enough or care enough to find the best ammo. What they do is grab whatever they see and shoot for the weekend, then 6 month later go do shoot at a different place and buy some more last minute ammo. You may not care for ammo tolerance. That is completely fine (in fact, I personally do not either as all I shoot is CCI subs or SV). But there are many who find ammo intolerance annoying.

Those are the people the gun shops like. They don't know any better and are therefore easily persuaded into buying something that isn't the best for what they really want to do.

Originally Posted by gadgetman

No. It just means that the shops push the Ruger more in order to make more money.

you are putting the cart before the horse. how do you make more money if the market does not want to buy it? Your theory is fundamentally incompatible with the current economic theory of supply and demand. in the same vien, would you suggest the reason Tikka T3 is the most popular bolt action centrefire because shops get more profit from selling Tikka T3 than other guns? and cannot possibly be that T3 is the most popular gun in the eyes of the consumers?

Originally Posted by gadgetman

We used to mainly buy British cars here. Was it because they were great? No, they leaked oil, most needed a recondition at about 80,000km, ... It was because it was all that was available due to trade agreements.

You have already acknowledged that it is not analogous then why make this analogy? British cars were the only option because of the trade agreement. But has there ever been a trade agreement with Ruger to not sell Marlin and Norinco and CZ semis in New Zealand?

Originally Posted by gadgetman

Those are the people the gun shops like. They don't know any better and are therefore easily persuaded into buying something that isn't the best for what they really want to do.

Be that as it may, the point is simply that there is a large body of consumers who do not turn their minds to the more nuanced analysis and would just settle for the more "robust" product. This is not just the case for guns, the same goes for many other types of products. Corolla has never been the fastest, or the cheapest, or the most economical, or the most stylish small car. It is reliably and robust. People can go on years without proper service and maintenance schedules and they would still run. An European car owner may well say that is not the right way to treat a car, my fiat which I service once every 6 month or 3000 km has just been reliable.... yet Corolla is the most popular small car in New Zealand. Fiat is not.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

in the States Malin 60 is about 160 while 10/22 is about 260, quite a big difference. here I think the difference is about 15%.


That must mean 10/22 is more popular then, if people are more willing to pay a bigger profit to the shops than Marlin. In fact more shops stock them should lead to more competition and therefore lower profit for 10/22 than Marlin.


I am not trying to decide which rifle should win the "rifle of the century" award. I am just saying 10/22 is the most popular semi 22 in New Zealand. For better or for worse people like it more here than the Marlin, it is that simple.



Not everyone does that, plenty of people do not shoot enough or care enough to find the best ammo. What they do is grab whatever they see and shoot for the weekend, then 6 month later go do shoot at a different place and buy some more last minute ammo. You may not care for ammo tolerance. That is completely fine (in fact, I personally do not either as all I shoot is CCI subs or SV). But there are many who find ammo intolerance annoying.

We have NZ's biggest 10/22 fanboy right here. Calm down bro - the thread is about the worst firearm you have ever owned.... for a lot of people that is a 10/22. Don't take it personally

Originally Posted by Nickoli

We have NZ's biggest 10/22 fanboy right here. Calm down bro - the thread is about the worst firearm you have ever owned.... for a lot of people that is a 10/22. Don't take it personally

I think you should attack the topic, not the person. in any event your attack is misplaced. I have said repeatedly that I think 10/22 is inaccurate and overpriced. I have no problem with many people finding 10/22 to be the worst gun they had - it would be a natural consequence of having the largest number in the pool. I am merely trying to give a balanced view that to improve accuracy does not cost "twice the cost of the gun".

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

My point simply goes to it does not cost twice the 10/22 to make it shoot accurately.

If i was buying a 10-22 with the intention of rebarreling it I don't think I'd start with a new one, I'd buy a tidy second hand one. Let's say $400, it's what new ones were going for not that long ago.

Add the $400 you said a barrel costs, plus whatever a gunsmith charges to fit it... You've more than doubled the cost, and that's before you even think about the horrible trigger.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

If i was buying a 10-22 with the intention of rebarreling it I don't think I'd start with a new one, I'd buy a tidy second hand one. Let's say $400, it's what new ones were going for not that long ago.

That is what I did. I paid 300 for mine 3 years ago, an older stainless model with alloy trigger housing.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Add the $400 you said a barrel costs, plus whatever a gunsmith charges to fit it... You've more than doubled the cost,

You would not get a gun smith to fit the barrel - that is the whole appeal of 10/22, it is such a easy gun to change every part. the V-lock takes about 20 seconds to remove and the barrel slides right off. The only thing is that aftermarket barrels tend to need a slight sanding down before it would fit into the action, nothing an average bloke cannot get done in 30 minutes.

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

Firstly, I consider new factory basic 10/22 at 600 for wood and blue version and 700 for plastic and stainless version, to be overpriced. I would never recommend that to anyone. I certainly did not buy one at that price. But that is not the point of debate.

Secondly, despite new 10/22s are overpriced, 400 to make it accurate is actually not bad at all. the appeal of 10/22 is the non-protruding 10 round mag, tolerance for any and all ammos, and the easy assembly. There are cheaper semis, sure, but most of them are more picky and less reliable.

If it were not so, 10/22 would not have been the best selling semi 22.

The design of the ruger 10/22 is practical and effective. Well though out and the 10 round flush mag really tops it off. Problem is over the years the quality has fallen away significantly. They used to be one of the cheapest semi autos on the market and one of the better ones at the same time, but their manufacturing processes changed in the late 80s, early 90s and they got progressively worse. They still sell on name alone as for the most part they are still a very good design. But there are better semi autos out there at similar prices now, and and the choice is improving. For a better semi you could look at pretty much any other semi auto and for out of the box accuracy pretty much any other 22.....But most 22s are not as easy to alter, "pimp up" taylor to an individuals desire. New stocks, barrels, add ons etc are predominantly made for the 10/22. (and it could be argued these add ons are popular because the rifle is disappointing without them)

As for price, they were about $400 in the early 90s when I got mine new, then they climbed gradually to around $800 in the early 2000s. About 05 /06 when the US dollar climbed to 80c NZ we started to see them come in again around the $400-$450 mark and recently they have started to climb towards the $600 mark again. (Some are dearer depending on what add ons and where you buy them....)

I like their design for the take down, and the rifle itself. But the last one I owned had its best group of around 12 inches at 25 yards....!!!!!!!!!!! I have seen them do 1/2 and 1 inch groups at 50 but mine was not able to. Consistency in manufacture has let Ruger down big time.