The Zero Check Thread

[gimp]

what am I missing here to me the rifle from the first pictures is not zeroed its shooting out to the right is there a reason why one would zero a rifle like that - mine I zero group dead on bulls eye ????? or was the scope adjusted afterwoods

It is actually zeroed for my 80gr ELDM load. The 73gr I am using shoot slightly to the right. The offset is less than 0.1MRAD, 17 of 20 shots were within 0.5MOA of point of aim.

[Tentman]

Nope. We shot it last week, my effort was judged closest but I didn't take the money. My group was well under moa but was one click left (10mm) and that put 3 holes over the edge of the black.

I like your thinking on this but I fear there are still too many uncontrolled variables that will make a reliable and repeatable result difficult. For example, environmental factors, wind, temperature (effects air density and powder, therefore velocity) and mirage. That's not to mention human factors, eg a cold day so extra jacket effects position etc etc.

I'd think a mechanical test of the scopes in question would be more reliable. But I doubt the protagonists would accept it anyway, this smacks of some sort of "belief" which as issues like node theory prove, people don't want the scientific explanation.

[Kiwi Greg]

I like your thinking on this but I fear there are still too many uncontrolled variables that will make a reliable and repeatable result difficult. For example, environmental factors, wind, temperature (effects air density and powder, therefore velocity) and mirage. That's not to mention human factors, eg a cold day so extra jacket effects position etc etc.

Yep for sure
When you basically have the formula 1 of rifles, cartridge, rest, flags etc that is capable of a genuine 1/16-1/8-1/4 multiple 5 shot groups if conditions/shooter allow, you start to appreciate the things you can't control & wonder how we shoot the odd tiny group with hunting rifles/Ladas

[gimp]

I like your thinking on this but I fear there are still too many uncontrolled variables that will make a reliable and repeatable result difficult. For example, environmental factors, wind, temperature (effects air density and powder, therefore velocity) and mirage. That's not to mention human factors, eg a cold day so extra jacket effects position etc etc.

I'd think a mechanical test of the scopes in question would be more reliable. But I doubt the protagonists would accept it anyway, this smacks of some sort of "belief" which as issues like node theory prove, people don't want the scientific explanation.

If anyone else is interested in genuinely testing, we'll see I suppose

[Tentman]

If anyone else is interested in genuinely testing, we'll see I suppose

I do intend to try it, I have a new 223 going (but not sorted) and if the rifle is accurate enough it will be an interesting project to try it with.

[flock]

Havn't figured how to get the Hornady Group Analysis pictures off the phone.

[whanahuia]

Nope. We shot it last week, my effort was judged closest but I didn't take the money. My group was well under moa but was one click left (10mm) and that put 3 holes over the edge of the black.

I like your thinking on this but I fear there are still too many uncontrolled variables that will make a reliable and repeatable result difficult. For example, environmental factors, wind, temperature (effects air density and powder, therefore velocity) and mirage. That's not to mention human factors, eg a cold day so extra jacket effects position etc etc.

I'd think a mechanical test of the scopes in question would be more reliable. But I doubt the protagonists would accept it anyway, this smacks of some sort of "belief" which as issues like node theory prove, people don't want the scientific explanation.

@Tentman. Im interested in trying the 5 shot challenge. However I don't have a dial repeatable scope and Im not going to do it at the cost of my current Zero. Ill try it at 100 and 400 if its acceptable to centre the Moa at the verified trajectory points at those ranges?

[Nick-D]

Never had an issue with any of my loopys, I'll drag my kimber out and shoot a string or 2 for data. Done a lot of miles without needing any adjusting.

[gimp]

Havn't figured how to get the Hornady Group Analysis pictures off the phone.

I just screenshot them using the screenshot function on my phone

[Tentman]

@Tentman. Im interested in trying the 5 shot challenge. However I don't have a dial repeatable scope and Im not going to do it at the cost of my current Zero. Ill try it at 100 and 400 if its acceptable to centre the Moa at the verified trajectory points at those ranges?

Just put an aiming point on your target at what ever you are offset at at 100M (then it's a 29.1mm dot) or at 100Y where it's a 26.5mm dot. Keep everything plumb, I struggle with this challenge because the slightest cant will kill ya.

[gimp]

Despite my slight zero offset - 1 entire 10rd group from yesterday (with factory ammo) beats the challenge, and the 2nd 7/10 did. It shouldn't be that hard for someone to do it ! It certainly hints that the average precision and accuracy out there is worse than people understand.

However the primary purpose of the thread was to try get some good data on whether common scopes actually hold zero or not

[Fat ninja]

I don’t have the data and pics you do but, will try give a similar run down to you.

Range-100m laser verified
Rifle- 16inch P.o.f .223
Optic- Nightforce shv 3-10
Mounts- A.R.M.S return to zero mount
Ammo- 73gr Hornady ELDM factory

This is my main work gun, since switching to the ELDM 18ish months ago I’ve only had to re-zero once and it was a good knock. I’ve done a couple of check zeros after some knocks but havnt had to re-zero. Given how rough I am on my work gear, I’m very impressed with the scopes ability to handle knocks. I don’t have a pic of when I last zeroed but it’s about 1MOA, I could chase rounds and try get smaller but I’m happy with good enough for a deers eye ball at 100m. Once zeroed this set up will stay zeroed unless it gets a very hard whack, this is my first Nightforce and I’m very impressed with how it handles the knocks.

[SPEARONZ]

My leupold holds zero. The one problem I had were talley rings coming loose on a hunt.

I now run:
Dpt pic rail *blue loctite
Vortex pro rings

I didn't get a photo of the initial zero but went to the range in November and zeroed. Temp mid teens.

Public land hunt. 320m


Re check zero early Jan.
5mph wind
110m
Temp- high teens
No adjustments made


Reshot with different load
Same Temp
No wind
No adjustments gives same poi


I'll post a part 2 with both loads after the next shoot.

[gimp]

Date: 25/1/2025
Range: 100m (laser verified)
Rifle: Remington Model 7 .223
Optic: March F 3-24x42
Mounts: Talley Ultralight 30mm Low - ring caps torqued to 20in/lb; base screws torqued "farmer tight and forgotten about"
Ammunition: Hornady Match 73gr ELDM Factory
Context: Last zero checked 15th December. Since then has driven from Hokitika to Central Otago twice, been 4wding, lain on the back floor of a Hughes 500 flying around for a few hours, shot 3 deer, 9 pigs, and about 20 odd goats. Last cleaned maybe 150-300 rounds ago - I don't remember.

Zero is within 0.1MRAD of centre. I will re-check and see if it has shifted after my next trip (next week).

I have not experienced issues with this system and zero shift in the past in real use.

Note I fired 2x 10 round groups - overlaid both make around a 0.9MOA 20-shot aggregate with a mean radius of about 0.06MRAD. Note even with a reasonably precise system with no recoil, and 10 shot groups to establish zero, there is about a 2mm different in both axes for the MPOI of each group.

Mean POI of all 20 shots overlaid is 0.07; -0.018 MRAD. I can compare a future zero check MPOI to this.



Attachment 267550

Attachment 267551

Attachment 267553

Attachment 267554

Check today. 1 click left from last time cos I realized I can. 105M and shooting off hard concrete - slight change in conditions

Zero today 0.015MRAD right, 0.12MRAD low. Maybe a zero shift down of 1 click?

Rifle has driven around a bunch, flown in a helicopter on the floor and shot 50 or so animals in the last 2 weeks. 4 days hunting. I won't draw any conclusions yet - I rarely shoot off concrete and would expect a possible change in POI from that, and would expect 0.02MRAD or thereabouts lower from the longer range - this group is roughly within the prior cone of fire.

[No.3]

I've had horrendous experiences in the past with mounts letting go or just not holding zero (scope moving with the mount/base staying tight or the base letting go for whatever reason).

Now with the 'heavy' rifles, it's a solid one piece pic rail bedded or even glued and screwed down with a sintered material ring clamped with a good torque wrench and loctited to within an inch of it's life. Not sure if it was the move to heavy Nightforce scopes or just a run of average luck on the things, but since going to that methodology and component selection I have not had one move nor a zero shift at all, period. I don't tend to thud those around but am confident enough with the setup to use the scope as a handle.

Carry rifles with lighter scopes get one piece base/ring setups bedded/shimmed for level and checked for alignment, any issues that can't be cured by shims/bedding and the things are discarded replaced (I don't lap at all now). Again, no issues to date.

I'm very particular with the setup of the scopes now, aligned to the bore centerline as close as possible, all screws checked for almost full depth of engagement and seated with loctite and a torque wrench, scope reticles centered prior to fitting and checked to ensure the reticle is aligned with the elevation and windage screws, then levelled as close as possible to the centerline of the action.

As I said, since going down that route I haven't had a zero shift even with some horrendous knocks. One rifle got caught by a tree branch and flicked off a 4 wheeler breaking the straps on the rack and it bounced down a bank - not me driving and I didn't see it fly but the guy driving owned up which was something). After washing/cleaning the mud out of the scope there actually wasn't any damage at all, which surprised me. Cleaning the mud out of the suppressor was a real bitch of a job, first time I've ever seen a mud-plugged can.

Zero checks are usually 1 click in a direction, more than likely environmental or shooter error. More often than not I'm altering the zero adjustment due to an ammo change, looking at going back to reloading for everything I shoot which should help this.