The Zero Check Thread

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Originally Posted by Kelton

Touch wood iv had a good run 3x vx6 1 vx5 and the vx3hd the vx3i was a problem child for sure

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Mine were pre HD.

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

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Originally Posted by nor-west

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

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Pretty much because extensive testing has shown that you need to fire a minimum of 10 rounds, ideally 20 or better yet 30 to get a good sample size that represents the true dispersion pattern of a rifle/bullet/powder combination. Shooting larger sample sizes and ruling in "flyers" gives you much better data to zero your rifle.

Most people can get by with an imperfect zero etc because of the size of the target and the distances they are shooting things at.

Yup and it gets you other ways too. Someone was posting about the temperature effects on ammo, how they got a 400mm drop at 300M. Poor zero right there.

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Originally Posted by nor-west

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

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Actually I do recall you firing 10 shots once, then you ran out of ammo, but that was a "we will never speak of this day again" scenario so I won't. Haha

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Originally Posted by nor-west

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

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You don't need to do anything that falls outside of your own requirements. If you're happy with your method of defining precision and zeroing your rifle then good for you - go shoot stuff and be happy.

Here's the big but - when claims are made that a rifle shoots 'sub-MOA all day' or suchlike, that's when statistical validity becomes the primary consideration.

These discussions posted by Gimp et al have always been to try to get us thinking about what we're claiming (and expecting) of our equipment and abilities and BE HONEST with ourselves about our expectations of both.

Beavis makes a great point that errors in your system are much less problematic if you follow the traditional hunter's advice to 'stalk in close, then get a bit closer' before shooting. This was very much the approach when I was younger and was taught to shoot. And it served us well for trying to achieve humane kills with the equipment we had.

Times change though and these days it's very easy to wander in to a shop and buy yourself the ultimate long range precision rifle setup and set off into the world to emulate what has been seen or read about online. And that's where it can all come unstuck without understanding what precision actually is and how to use that to zero your rifle/scope system to make best use of that potential.

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Originally Posted by Steelisreal

You don't need to do anything that falls outside of your own requirements. If you're happy with your method of defining precision and zeroing your rifle then good for you - go shoot stuff and be happy.

Here's the big but - when claims are made that a rifle shoots 'sub-MOA all day' or suchlike, that's when statistical validity becomes the primary consideration.

These discussions posted by Gimp et al have always been to try to get us thinking about what we're claiming (and expecting) of our equipment and abilities and BE HONEST with ourselves about our expectations of both.

Beavis makes a great point that errors in your system are much less problematic if you follow the traditional hunter's advice to 'stalk in close, then get a bit closer' before shooting. This was very much the approach when I was younger and was taught to shoot. And it served us well for trying to achieve humane kills with the equipment we had.

Times change though and these days it's very easy to wander in to a shop and buy yourself the ultimate long range precision rifle setup and set off into the world to emulate what has been seen or read about online. And that's where it can all come unstuck without understanding what precision actually is and how to use that to zero your rifle/scope system to make best use of that potential.

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This is a very good summary.

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Originally Posted by Kelton

Quick pre roar trip check shot around 2 weeks ago tomorrow I always like to check before a trip but I also dropped the rifle directly on its head trying to weigh it with luggage scales I think it bounced from can to scope so would have some what broke the fall also wanted to double down on the velocity as iv now fitted a cds accuracy is more than good enough for my intended use and it had an sd of 14.5 across the 10 shots which is also good enough for my max range of 400 yards . Note the only shot I’m certain of is #3 I know #1 and 2# were far right and together the rest is just marking impacts in no confirmed order for the purpose of marking the shots I also see now iv finished mucking with the app one shot is out of place as theirs a hole just behind the aim point

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Nice. Looks like you're zeroed about 2 clicks high & 1 click right -did you adjust to centre? Interested to see how it holds that zero. Thanks for contributing.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Nice. Looks like you're zeroed about 2 clicks high & 1 click right -did you adjust to centre? Interested to see how it holds that zero. Thanks for contributing.

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I did adjust left to right but not height only because it’s 16” and going slow with the most common intentional range being sub 100 I figure dead deer, when I got this rifle going the eldx never grouped particularly well when say looking at my saum but I thought hey what’s your max range here 300-400 yards absolute can that load hit the plate 150mmx150mm at max range and I couldn’t miss so I left it alone hoping it holds a zero all my bartliens have being very stable barrels other components could be the Achilles heal we will see ��

Only one of those is this rifle don’t no which one but same theory dead deer at max range

I check zero every so often. Like when I have an unexplained miss on an animal I'll either do a proper target test or shoot something like a pine cone etc after checking range with rangefinder. Invariably it's operator error. Anyway, as I use my rifles on a weekly basis I'm pretty confident they're pretty good at maintaining zero and I'm happy with overall accuracy. Don't have any fancy Ballistic x photos or anything but a few photos from a range shoot in Westport a couple of weeks ago. Two rifles, a 223 and a 6.5CM. Both hunting rifles shooting F-class FPR. The odd sighter out of groups is due to calibration not being quite right on individual targets so had to adjust but same for everyone who competed. Bad shots are just operator error/not reading wind right. Anyhow, I don't get too serious with stuff but I'm reasonably happy with my setups. They get me animals ok. Hope pictures/captions load ok.

223, 55gr v-max Attachment 271657
223, 73gr ELDM Attachment 271661
6.5CM 147gr ELDM 600yd target shot @ 700yds. Attachment 271662
6.5CM 147 ELDM Attachment 271658
6.5CM 147 ELDM Attachment 271663

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Originally Posted by woods223

I check zero every so often. Like when I have an unexplained miss on an animal I'll either do a proper target test or shoot something like a pine cone etc after checking range with rangefinder. Invariably it's operator error. Anyway, as I use my rifles on a weekly basis I'm pretty confident they're pretty good at maintaining zero and I'm happy with overall accuracy. Don't have any fancy Ballistic x photos or anything but a few photos from a range shoot in Westport a couple of weeks ago. Two rifles, a 223 and a 6.5CM. Both hunting rifles shooting F-class FPR. The odd sighter out of groups is due to calibration not being quite right on individual targets so had to adjust but same for everyone who competed. Bad shots are just operator error/not reading wind right. Anyhow, I don't get too serious with stuff but I'm reasonably happy with my setups. They get me animals ok. Hope pictures/captions load ok.

223, 55gr v-max Attachment 271657
223, 73gr ELDM Attachment 271661
6.5CM 147gr ELDM 600yd target shot @ 700yds. Attachment 271662
6.5CM 147 ELDM Attachment 271658
6.5CM 147 ELDM Attachment 271663

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Your groups will kill deer,thats all that matters.

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Originally Posted by nor-west

20 shot groups should be the minimum, hot barrels be buggered. I guess I'll keep being a dinosaur and consider 5 shot groups is all I need. I cannot recall ever having to shoot 10 shots while out hunting. Tell me again why we need to burn powder, primers and barrels because someone decided its now necessary to have 10 shot groups for a hunting rifle?

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because some people need to boost their egos...

In case of shifting poi check your suppressor if you have one. carbon build up will add mass... which will alter harmonics...

same as a tuner essentially

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Originally Posted by STC

In case of shifting poi check your suppressor if you have one. carbon build up will add mass... which will alter harmonics...

same as a tuner essentially

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How much carbon weight have you see produce this? How much POI shift ?

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Originally Posted by gimp

How much carbon weight have you see produce this? How much POI shift ?

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I’d like to see some figures too. Of the various suppressors I’ve had over the years can’t say I’ve noticed any significant hunting accuracy shift with suppressor carbon build up. Couple of CJA AR15’s the suppressors hardly ever came off rifle, Gunworks can’t clean anyway. By the time the suppressor was getting carboned up (4000+ rounds ) the rifle was getting worn out anyway, still shot good enough for pest control work. As an aside, I still don’t clean suppressors, they run quieter with a bit of carbon buildup and I can’t be arsed with cleaning all the time. Each to their own though.

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Originally Posted by woods223

I’d like to see some figures too. Of the various suppressors I’ve had over the years can’t say I’ve noticed any significant hunting accuracy shift with suppressor carbon build up. Couple of CJA AR15’s the suppressors hardly ever came off rifle, Gunworks can’t clean anyway. By the time the suppressor was getting carboned up (4000+ rounds ) the rifle was getting worn out anyway, still shot good enough for pest control work. As an aside, I still don’t clean suppressors, they run quieter with a bit of carbon buildup and I can’t be arsed with cleaning all the time. Each to their own though.

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Actual real world experience :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by STC

because some people need to boost their egos...

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No. Different strokes for different folks. Some people prefer a science/evidence based approach. Not everyone's' cup of tea but you don't have to drink it.

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Originally Posted by gimp

How much carbon weight have you see produce this? How much POI shift ?

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on my rifles? none... because I clean them. on other peoples suppressors that I serviced (because i got the clamps to separate stuck baffles) a surprising amount. layers that could be measured in mm...

Without knowing the exact density of the built up carbon the added weight would be multiple grams.

given that barrel tuners (which essentially shift a small amount of mass fractions of a mm) have a measurable effect on harmonics (poi, group size) this might simply be one of the contributing factors to shifting pois or peoples hunting rifle "suddenly" stopping to shoot well...

Now add to that that many suppressors (hardy) can't be opened to clean them...

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Originally Posted by STC

In case of shifting poi check your suppressor if you have one. carbon build up will add mass... which will alter harmonics...

same as a tuner essentially

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I ran 1 DPT [ 223] can wet recently. It means the wd40 peels off the carbon. But found it was louder and defeated any purpose so going back to dry. No real drama with cleaning because we run a regular strip and clean. 2C. Oh yes it had a powder discharge each round which was somewhat disconcerting probably because running wet.

The 223 on deer thread has urged me to set up an 18' 223 to run on general pest control.

I picked up a 8 twist barrel off of a mate recently, cut it back to 18" and have been running the same load my tikka varmint likes.

has only been on some small missions, not rough pack in pack out type stuff. checked zero over the weekend.

Date: 18/03/2025
Range: 100m
Rifle: Tikka t3 .223
Optic: Vortex PST Gen1 2.5-10
Mounts: Nightforce ultralight 30mm 6 screw
Ammunition: Hornady 80gr ELDm Relaods - GG Brass - 2206h - CCI450
Context: Last zero checked 5th march after installing barrel. has since been rattled around in the ute and been taken out on the farm. nothing strenuous.

Attachment 271871