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Thread: Budget Family 4WD

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  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by No.3 View Post
    Was about to mention the same as Flyblown - electronics are not friends with water and these vehicles can handle a splash but really dislike immersion. Something as simple as water getting into a loom plug can bring up a diagnostic alert which makes the ECU think it's rooted and raise the index finger at you. It's something that can be expensive to track down and fix - but worse than that you can end up stuck in the wops with a pissed off wife and screaming kids. That ain't fun... I'm having a pesky electronic gremlin with a Ranger at the moment, it would appear from the datalogging so far to be related to an injection component not dumping pressure out of the fuel rail quickly enough but I haven't been using the thing enough on long trips to generate the fault and confirm it.

    On from that, the softroaders are OK for dry work but even 'flash' vehicles like the VW 4wd's have had issues with water in their looms. I would not take them over their rated wading depth and even then I would hesitate about it.
    ...And that's part of the reason a Nissan Safari worth 6K 3 years ago is now selling for 25K!!!
    mudgripz, 57jl and ROKTOY like this.

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    If you can get a Hack (no longer regesterable) and have the space to store it that really is the go

    4wding just wrecks vehicles

    either that or get a trailer and a cheep quad and go ten times the places,
    Moa Hunter and XR500 like this.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill999 View Post
    If you can get a Hack (no longer regesterable) and have the space to store it that really is the go

    4wding just wrecks vehicles

    either that or get a trailer and a cheep quad and go ten times the places,
    I wouldn't attempt any serious water crossings on a quad and that is what the o.p is talking about doing, you really need a proper 4wd set up for water crossings to attempt that (snorkel, diff and gearbox breathers, etc).
    #DANNYCENT

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    nothing beats fucking up your daily driver over the weekend and having to sort out a ride to work for the next few weeks

  5. #5
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    I've saved some of you guys' good advice which may be of use to OP, I was saving it as a guide for when I get into a 4WD

    Because there is interest in the subject a bit of copy and paste is easy enough - if OP is reading, Mudgripz knows his onions..

    Mudgripz speaks

    Bit of advice from old 4x4 clubber.*

    Did umpteen years club offroading (hence the site name) and hundreds of tracks including coast to coast etc. After many years of running all the 4x4 makes through obstacles side by side, and knowing the relative maintenance for each model, alot of myths go out the window, and the sturdier trucks emerge.

    First thing - forget the old landies. Even in the Canterburyy Landrover club very few members run landies, they are frowned on when you take them on trips because of breakdown rate, and they had special landie days to accommodate them. Don't go there - too brittle. Then forget the new ones. Went on one landrover club trip - it had only two new landies on it - and both buckled steering gear when no other trucks did.

    Don't believe the Toyota 'tough truck' marketing. Have watched too many members and mates doing their toyota boxes, diffs, motor work etc when other trucks didn't need it. 2.8 non turbo probly the best of the Toyota motors but not much power. Performance better with turbo bolted on but motor not so reliable afterwards with the extra turbo pressure.

    Chrome has summarised the 1Kz motors above. Ok, nice to drive, but a number of club trucks cracked heads and if the water got into the bore it was a $9k rebuild.

    Some of the mitsis ok - not as rugged as some trucks but the older 2.5 softtop with factory locker ok - esp if it had the cast iron Mitsi Canter gearbox.

    Three good options are the safari, toyota hilux 2.8, and the isuzu 1987-92 2.8T:

    Safari very heavy - we called them sinkers for obvious reasons - and a bit gutless unless turboed, but tough, durable donkeys. Easy to mod.

    Toyota hilux 2.8 - good engine, tons of parts for inexpensive repairs, Can be made into good performers but you must do the lifts right - have seen hiluxes that look great but on the ramp measured terrible wheel articulation.

    Isuzu bighorn 87-92 - a sleeper - in fact an isuzu light truck with 4x4 body. 4Jb1T a cracker of a*diesel, easy to tune to 140-150hp, very tough and durable, great drivetrain, easy to mod. Hard to get here now though.

    It is no accident that these are the three 4x4s overseas (from Dubai etc) buyers come into NZ to pick up and sell into Africa etc.

    Jeeps a no-no. Standing joke among jeep club mates is jeep means "just explode every part'.... Very brittle.

    Little suzukis do some things well but with serious limitations - not much torque, no grunt when pushing big tyres, no room for passengers and gear, and no good in deeper rivers - have seen them floating off.

    For bang for your buck for an easily setup 4x4 for hunting and moderate offroading, my advice would be the 4JG2 3.1 isuzu wizard. Very underpriced, very sturdy isuzu drivetrain and box and quite good motor. Occasional head cracking but nothing like the toyota 2.4T and 3.0T. As noted above a bigbore even from flexi back will help with this. Quite good ones from $3,500 - alot come with v good isuzu LSD, good range of lockers etc. Don't buy the wizard with 4X1 3.0 motor - crapper of an engine. 92 - 97 Bighorns also good value - similar to but heavier than wizard.

    Give me call when you get back Mark - cheers Mike Anderson. Hope this short summary helps.*

    (And no more *&#* old landies! A Cantab clubmate of mine had one for about 12 years but it hardly ever left his garage - he used a cruiser instead... He spent a fortune on the old series 2 and finally sold it for $1200 - not going.) Nuff said...




    Other 4WD forum advice

    Flyblown

    Hands down the best option is a 1GR-FE V6 4.0 engined Prado, or even better for NZ use, the rare but findable Hilux with the same engine.

    The old school high compression turbo diesels with 400,000km plus the extra couple of hundred thousand you don’t know about? Fuck that.

    If like me you’ve lived a while in Aus and used the 1GR in a variety of vehicles, and have access to the fleet data for a hundred or so more, you’ll know why I’m talking it up. One of the better examples of their ruggedness were the railway company vehicles - Prados mostly - used to check the lines day in day out in QLD, NT, WA. They didn’t buy the diesel variant of these vehicles for a reason. If I told you the mileage these vehicles wracked up in three years you wouldn’t believe me. And only about 5% of those kilometres were on the black top, the rest rough as railway tracks.

    I got the first 120series Prado with 80,000km on it and gave it back to the fleet manager with 255,000km. A typical 4 week holiday for us, from WA to Tas or the Vic High Country, was a 10,000km trip all up. I tried to buy that vehicle, but was turned down (the couldn’t allow the precedent unfortunately). It was a manual.

    The second Prado was a 150series with the same engine, I only had it for 2 years from new, we did 39,000km in the first year, then my job changed and I gave it back when I left with 55,000km. The second one was an auto box.

    Neither vehicle gave me a hint of trouble. None whatsoever. We went into some hell and gone places, especially in the first one.My neighbour runs an early Gen 7 Hilux with the same 4.0L engine (GGN26R model) that is probably a 2005 or 06, I go in that truck regularly, it is well over 400,000km and smooth as silk, a very very reliable vehicle.


    Josh C, re same motor
    They're an awesome motor, so reliable and cheap to service. If you're only doing a few thousand kms a year I'd have one a hilux with one of these motors hands down over a diesel variant

    Flyblown again
    The other petrol engine that should get a mention here is the Toyota 3RZ-FE, 2.7L 4cyl. I have not owned one of these, but there’s a couple in Tacomas stateside with my cuzzies, and they are like crazy high mileage. Those are conventional 2WD pickups, delivery vehicles. You can get this engine in the Gen 6 Hilux 4WD here, it is often overlooked by kiwis and that’s a mistake. There are of course thousands of super-high mileage Hiaces with this engine.



    Nissan Patrol GU
    Looking for one of these with the factory TD42T motor. GU/Y61. Ideally one that hasn’t been cowboy tuned or modded too much. Not an easy find these days. I dicked around after looking at a tidy one the other day for 30k. I see it was sold to a commercial dealer and relisted on trademe today for 43k*
    *
    It would appear that mechanically injected diesels that can be worked on, with OEM parts still available new, that have not had a visit from the rust monster are worth gold now a days.

    And no, I'm not selling any of my collection of Y60's and Y61. They are just too good to move on,......and with what would you replace with these days???
    *
    I got myself a great example a few months back, td42ti manual gu, has all the bells and whistles. So glad I brought it after selling my 80 series cruiser
    *
    *





















    3.1 4JG2 Isuzu motor quite a good diesel. Based on the earlier 4Jb1 2.8 which was a beauty. The 3.1 will occasionally crack heads but nothing like as bad as the 2.4T or 1kz series toyotas. Indirect injection system feels like they're a little sluggish to get moving but once up and running they pull quite well. 120-135hp depending on model. Very good box and drivetrain, and easy to modify for club use.

    Things to look for with 4JG2 (and most any diesel):
    * turbo noise on wind down - $1000 if turbo bearings shot on 4JG2.
    * Check steering box for leaks. WOF issue and can be $400 to fix*
    * Check lower crank pulley for movement (serious) and for oil leaks (easier)
    * Check if timing belt done
    * Check radiator - well maintained coolant or dirty. No oil or sealant material in it. No temp issues on road test.
    * Check excessive fuming - lift off oil filler cap
    * Check for excessive engine noise
    * Check oil leakages around block, and esp at rear main seal join between motor and gearbox
    * Check front CVs and CV boots. If skinny CV shafts (some are very skinny but most 25-30mm diameter) then no good for offroading
    * Check 4wd in both high and lo ratios when driving
    * Check if LSD (G80 on options plate on firewall) or by wheel spinning test
    * Check even tyre wear and alignment on road. Half worn muds no good for club offroading - that's when we sell them.
    * Check auto smooth changes and at right revs - changes smoother after running 5-7 minutes.
    * Check for smoking - puff of blue on start up ok, and bit of grey or black ok when running. Not white.
    * Check rear pinion and axle/hub seals not leaking
    * Check for vibrations/noises when driving - can be universals, driveshaft hanger bearing, wheel bearings, rear diff etc
    * Check it has adequate power
    * Check all window operations - they all cost money to do.
    * Check every electrical item
    * Rust check every panel and underneath.

    Run through this checklist and you'll troubleshoot most diesels. Before about 95 (approx) 4JG2s are usually mechanical diesel pumps and easy to tweak timing and diesel flow for 15 more hp. After round 95 usually electronic pumps and harder to tweak. 2.5" bigbore from turbo allows greater airflow, gives them extra hp and brings turbo in boost sooner. I wouldn't expect a 20 year old diesel 4wd to be perfect - just a matter of noting work that needs to be done, checking its cost, and coming to a fair purchase price.


    When buying older diesels - or probably any*diesel*for that matter - its good to go through a short checklist of key parts in the vehicle when inspecting it. Pretty much anyone can do this if you know where to look. Main parts to look for are:

    * Steering box seals*- is there leakage around box at bottom of shaft = WOF issue.
    * Radiator*- is there brown dirty water and gunk when you run finger round inside cap area = not well maintained. Check radiator hoses aren't crunchy - easy enough to replace.
    * Motor*- is it excessively rattly, does it fume alot with oil cap off, and does it blow blue smoke? Bit of blue on start up ok - but not more, bit of black is just overfuelling, puffs of white sometimes water in system = not good. Check also for oil leakages round head/block. Track any leakages/oil dripping.
    * Fuel pump*- check for any leakages around fuel pump - occasionally you can get away with top seals only but usually a major cost.
    * Turbo*- is it leaking oil round unit (fixable) or is it whining bad when switched off (terminal)
    * Check rear main seal*where motor bolted to box. Oil sweating normal, but significant wetness/oil leakage is a gearbox off job sometime.
    * Feel driveshafts*for movement - if sloppy its likely universal joints - easy enough to do. Check front driveshaft for movement too.
    * Check for oil leakage around rear diff head*= pinion seal and a bigger job to do and reset gears.
    * Check rear axle seals*- some pressed in and a fair bit of time to fix.
    * Check CV boots*- each perished one takes 1-2 hours to replace.
    * Gearbox*- smooth or lurchy for auto, clutch judder on take off for manual, clutch slip when booting it at very low revs in 4th for manual, smooth and not notchy synchro changes for manual.
    * Engage 4wd*low range and test it to see it works well without strange noises. Turn some hard lefts and rights to check CVs for clicking = stuffed
    * Check electrics*- all windows etc - WOF issues
    * Road test*- does it have enough power or is it gutless for the model. You can do compression/leakdown test but you can usually tell when compressions b*ggered just by driving them. When driving does it smoke - and what colour. Smooth straight tracking or wheel alignment issues.*
    * Tyre wear*- a big cost with 4x4s. Muds more than half worn are not much use in slippery conditions - ok in summer or on rivers.
    * Check body*for damages and rust - esp in sills etc
    * Check for lifts/mods*done with no certification - can be insurance issue.

    That's just a few basic checkpoints anyone who is not a mechanic can do when buying a 4x4. And if you do them and vehicle passes, chances are its reasonably sound and you won't be hit with big bills. If you are still in doubt get a mechanic to test it - better to spend $50 and save $1000s. There will always be some areas needing attention on an older 4x4 - like CVs or steering box seals or something - and that's where you adjust the price accordingly.

    Hope this is useful - kind of question that comes up alot. These are things I look at but maybe we could get a few mechanics here to add to/adjust the points above, and then when we've got a good simple checklist it can be a sticky that anyone can print off when going to check your potential 4wd buy. Save alot of headaches*

    Cheers Mike



    Was chatting to*diesel*mechanic mate about the marvies and his comment was leave the mazda 4wds alone - not so robust engineering. They are also v hard on the juice.

    Wizard far better option and they go for b*gger all too. Nice on the road, easy to lift, good strong drivetrain and box, and isuzu (like the safari) have excellent LSDs. Pop some Redline Heavy Duty Shockproof Gear oil in them and they bite extremely well - almost as good as a diff locker....almost. Downside with 3.1 motor is it requires new turbo every 120ish ks so don't pick one w noisy turbo whine... Most of the wizards have mechnical rather than electronic fuel pumps so usually easy to add bit more fuel and tweak timing to gain 10hp extra power.

    I like the 3.0 surfs to drive - had one as work vehicle - but they're a bit of a lottery and can cost a bundle if head probs occur. In terms of bang for your buck I'd take the wizard as a worker - will be my next 4wd. Just make very sure you don't buy the 98-2000 or so model with the 3.0 4JX1 motor - isuzu's mistake. 4JH1 ok.
    mudgripz, rupert, Puffin and 6 others like this.

  6. #6
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    MBraga - I see you are in Christchurch like me. Chch is 4x4 central - good clubs, great tracks throughout the south accessible in a day or weekend from here. Canterbury, Reefton, West Coast, Central etc. But if you are getting interested in offroading and plan McCauley Godley type river trips, a soft road all wheel drive will not be advisable. Too many limitations - Flyblown's cautionary advice is right - as is No 3s.

    As a 20+ year Chch 4x4 club offroader myself I suggest you decide what level of offroad activity you want to do first - and buy to that. We grade all tracks from 1-5, 1 being easy farm tracks and 5 being coast to coast style truck busters. Been there, done that.. To take a soft roader out into southern river terrain is dangerous. That river can be a 2 or a 5 - often within 30 minutes. River levels rise very quickly, stranding you up some mountain valley, and with low ground clearance you're also at real risk of parking on boulders you can't see. Anything other than ideal dry conditions and you're in deep shite with road tyres or all-terrains, and low ground clearance. We don't even allow them on trips.

    You need a truck for the task, and modified for it. Example - these days my 4wding is somewhat easier, and I run a 96 Bighorn diesel. Good basic unit with strong drivetrain, 32" muds, 2" lift, tight LSD, tuned, snorkel, safety hooks/equipment etc - and that's basic spec, adequate for moderate southern offroad tracks. I wouldn't want less. A Mitsi as suggested, Bighorn, Prado (watch the 1kz motors) etc can do your job - can all be modified to get you in and out of our mountain terrain safely. Also important - try and find others to do your trips with. Travelling alone as a newbie up some mountain river is not a great idea - can go wrong very badly. Go to a 4wd club night and listen, then chat to people about tracks/trucks/mods. Find some mates, and find out what you need. You do not need to bash up your truck and have it parked in the shed after every trip. I never have - even doing toughest coast-to-coast tracks. You learn to drive WITHIN your truck spec and keep it safe and sound. Canterbury Recreational 4wd club is good -variety of trip levels.

    You may end up with two vehicles - your modded diesel truck, plus a wee commuter car. You won't get an under 120k truck, modded, for your 15k budget. Most of the clubbies go for 'pre-electronic' (to some extent) 90s vehicles - and they usually have 200-350k on the clock, and we don't often use them also as day drivers. If you want to chat about your truck plans, feel free to PM me.
    Last edited by mudgripz; 16-06-2022 at 11:48 AM.

  7. #7
    sneakywaza I got
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudgripz View Post
    MBraga - I see you are in Christchurch like me. Chch is 4x4 central - good clubs, great tracks throughout the south accessible in a day or weekend from here. Canterbury, Reefton, West Coast, Central etc. But if you are getting interested in offroading and plan McCauley Godley type river trips, a soft road all wheel drive will not be advisable. Too many limitations - Flyblown's cautionary advice is right - as is No 3s.

    As a 20+ year Chch 4x4 club offroader myself I suggest you decide what level of offroad activity you want to do first - and buy to that. We grade all tracks from 1-5, 1 being easy farm tracks and 5 being coast to coast style truck busters. Been there, done that.. To take a soft roader out into southern river terrain is dangerous. That river can be a 2 or a 5 - often within 30 minutes. River levels rise very quickly, stranding you up some mountain valley, and with low ground clearance you're also at real risk of parking on boulders you can't see. Anything other than ideal dry conditions and you're in deep shite with road tyres or all-terrains, and low ground clearance. We don't even allow them on trips.

    You need a truck for the task, and modified for it. Example - these days my 4wding is somewhat easier, and I run a 96 Bighorn diesel. Good basic unit with strong drivetrain, 32" muds, 2" lift, tight LSD, tuned, snorkel, safety hooks/equipment etc - and that's basic spec, adequate for moderate southern offroad tracks. I wouldn't want less. A Mitsi as suggested, Bighorn, Prado (watch the 1kz motors) etc can do your job - can all be modified to get you in and out of our mountain terrain safely. Also important - try and find others to do your trips with. Travelling alone as a newbie up some mountain river is not a great idea - can go wrong very badly. Go to a 4wd club night and listen, then chat to people about tracks/trucks/mods. Find some mates, and find out what you need. You do not need to bash up your truck and have it parked in the shed after every trip. I never have - even doing toughest coast-to-coast tracks. You learn to drive WITHIN your truck spec and keep it safe and sound. Canterbury Recreational 4wd club is good -variety of trip levels.

    You may end up with two vehicles - your modded diesel truck, plus a wee commuter car. You won't get an under 120k truck, modded, for your 15k budget. Most of the clubbies go for 'pre-electronic' (to some extent) 90s vehicles - and they usually have 200-350k on the clock, and we don't often use them also as day drivers. If you want to chat about your truck plans, feel free to PM me.
    @mudgripz - What club grade would the Macauly River be? both my trucks, 97 Mitsi Lwb 3.5p/auto and 99 Prado D/manual have done that river valley more times than can count, never had any dramas due to vehical fault/failure (we will ignore the failures by the driver....)

  8. #8
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    Bill's point above also good to ponder. If you're on a budget - and who isn't - 4wding can be expensive with maintenance. Might cost 3-6k to mod a standard diesel truck depending on where you choose to go, and if you push truck hard on tougher grade 4-5 tracks it can become a VERY costly hobby.. Bearings, bushes, seals, alternators, starter motors..etc etc - you name it !!!
    Last edited by mudgripz; 16-06-2022 at 01:19 PM.
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  9. #9
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    This guy went up the Macaulay in his lifted Subaru!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4W3Bc1uuAo&t=13s
    Carbine, RV1, Longrun and 1 others like this.

  10. #10
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    If you are really serious about going bush through swamps and rivers, this setup may be just what's required. Big enough to take your jet boat along for the trip.

    I can almost imagine the guy in the drivers seat as a much younger version of Mudgripz, if it weren't for the Mongolian throat singing in the background

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2cP--iVbFU

  11. #11
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    Lets be honest most of the time you do not need a 4wd.
    4wd gets you out of trouble.
    The majority of 4wd ability is due to what tyres you are running and a bit of experience.
    Get experience where it doesn't cost you ie not in the middle of a river.
    Play where you can save game without damage.
    We learnt in a Series 2 Land rover with an old man who rarked us up if we left wheel marks.
    We used to take mates spotlighting who were amazed where we could go and not loose traction.
    Practice where you can get back out.
    Go with others who can teach you.
    7mmwsm, rugerman, mikee and 10 others like this.

  12. #12
    RV1
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    you sound like you might need a Sherp...

    (We all need a Sherp... shame it fails the "budget friendly" requirement...)

    Bryan, DCN808T and XR500 like this.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RV1 View Post
    you sound like you might need a Sherp...

    (We all need a Sherp... shame it fails the "budget friendly" requirement...)
    Take my money now!
    RV1 likes this.

  14. #14
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    Don't think tyre wear would be all that flash if you used it as a daily driver!!! But traffic jams would be a thing of the past...Just drive over them with those monster 3psi tyres
    RV1 likes this.

  15. #15
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    Those little Japanese 4w4 light trucks are very interesting, not road legal but very capable when given a little stilts job and some slightly bigger feet. A wee bit lacking in grunt (some are only 550cc) but the one the farmer mate has pisses all over the side x side's and comes in at 1/3rd the price. Much more comfortable cab, uses standard Repco automotive parts which are a fraction of the cost for spares and service components.

    The weight distribution is also quite interesting with the rear-engined versions, as i understand it the mates one is quite unusual being diesel powered and not petrol. Not sure if that's something that happened here in NZ or it started life like that?

    Possibly a bit light for wading and crossing duties and as I said the road-legal aspect is limiting but if you were in off-road areas only they'd be spiffy.

    Just looked at the cost of those sherps, US$115,000 - ouch!
    Last edited by No.3; 17-06-2022 at 04:26 PM.
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