Excavators

Now that the Carbon cheque has cleared we may be looking at sinking some of that ill gotten loot into an excavator. We have quite a few long term projects on the farm and in the forest that need doing to keep us solvent in our old age, and looking at what hourly rates have rocketed to, it strikes me that owning a medium sized one (10-13 tonne) could be the way to go.

Rather than a "what should I buy ?" question it may be better to look at "what should I avoid ?"

I see some reasonably new excavators rack up the hours at an alarming rate. I don't know if a 7 year old high hour digger is better value than a 25 year old digger with less hours? That sort of thing. And what is considered high hours?? anything over 10K?, or is that still just run in with some of these machines.

Any brands to avoid??

Most probably have 50-60K to sink into the project.

Cheers in advance

XR

A very rough rule of thumb is the digger can be used until its weight x1000 hours so about 13,000 for a 13 ton machine. Dealers have a age×hours formula they use to value diggers but I don't know the constants they use.

Everyone wants 12/13 ton diggers so a 20 will probably work out more cost effective.
I bought a tidy 20 ton Volvo with auto grease, two buckets and thumb for $80. 7000 hours
If your work is predominantly tracks or shifting dirt, a 20 will be streets ahead of a little one.
Need to be a bit careful in swamps though.

Was just going to suggest that same thing, 20 ton once you have it on site...

Look on Porters website, they will be open for a haggle.
I have had quite a few Hyundais over the years, always had a good run out of them, the earlier models were rust buckets.
Got two Hyundais and two Doosans at the moment, all mechanically sound, bought all 4 new 6 years ago and they haven’t missed a beat.
If you buy a high hour machine look for track wear, slew ring wear and good hydraulics.

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Originally Posted by 300winmag

Look on Porters website, they will be open for a haggle.
I have had quite a few Hyundais over the years, always had a good run out of them, the earlier models were rust buckets.
Got two Hyundais and two Doosans at the moment, all mechanically sound, bought all 4 new 6 years ago and they haven’t missed a beat.
If you buy a high hour machine look for track wear, slew ring wear and good hydraulics.

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Drive past Porters yard in Hamilton, will make you wonder is there still a market for machinery, other lease, hire outfits don't look any better.

You get better value from a bigger machine. They shift more in less time and if hiring, the rates don't reflect that. 10k hrs on a machine and track gear should be stuffed as a rule. So a big cost is waiting. Kobelco, Cat, Hitachi, volvo are all good and hold there value. Hyundai that had anything to do with haven't impressed or lasted. Komatsu you either like or don't. Cat's are expensive and new ones feel more like kittens.
Sitting in a 7t Hitachi doing farm work as I write this. Quite impressed what it can do for a small machine. 3k hrs and looked after. Maximum for working on lane ways to dig water tables and slew round without hitting a fence.
Essentially look for the lowest hr machine you can find invthe best condition and one of the main brands. Get someone to check over for track gear condition, pin wear , table movement and general problems. Anything you touch on one will be in the thousands, so due diligence is really worth it.

Sent from my SM-A145F using Tapatalk

We've got five 13T Sumitomo excavators, the oldest being 2013 at 9k hours and getting tired for our line of work.

Good machines when maintained and serviced - something to look for in what ever you purchase. AB equipment is in most towns and should be able to inspect and advise on what you're serious about buying.

I've got a baby 1.7T Hyundai which can do quite a bit of work, but like sheds and freezers, you always want to get the biggest you can afford. I was limited by what I could tow behind my van but if it is going to stay on your property than a 20 ton would be the go I reckon. As mentioned you can get them at a semi reasonable price since the mid sized machines seem to be in demand. I would much rather have a big machine working at 30 0r 40% than a smaller machine working at 80 or higher. Things last a bit longer if they aren't working close to capacity.

You might want to increase your budget a little to get a good low hour machine which will see you through to popping your cloggs.
Still a few companies going through tough times quitting a bit of gear or getting re-possessed, might get a good deal or two.
One with a blade would come in handy but at a cost.
You won't need zero swing unless you collar a cheap one.

The other thing to be looking for apart from track gear, slew rings and the other obvious wear points is seeing if you can find the type of work it was used for - one machine I saw spent a considerable amount of time getting the boom sections rebuilt. Was used with a vibratory hammer forcing in piles and the boom ends eventually failed with cracking, just too bloody hard on it.

Some of the operating environments are bloody hard on gear, some mining areas eat track gear and the ground contact gear just doesn't last.

Thanks guys for all the input. Sounds like the bigger ones will be the ones to look out for. We are not under much time pressure, sometime this FY will do.

And I get the "what has it been used for?" line. 6000 hours in a quarry vs 6000 hours moving dirt on a motorway alignment can mean an awful lot less wear and tear on the expensive bits. We already have a 12 ton dozer, but it gets tired quickly trying to do digger stuff with a dozer: trenches being the fun one!

There's the possibility It could get used for recovering thinnings from our 100 acre pine forest. Its just there's bugger all market for thinnings at the mo.

And yeah, @300winmag, I do get the feeling there will be more carnage with companies going belly up, so I hope we can take advantage there. But going much higher with the budget will definitely eat into the "buying other toys" category;)

Then again there's next years Carbon payment.....if its still a thing then:o

You want something nice and tight and low hours, piece of mind, that's coming from a contractor where down time costs $$$

I would stay away from ex forestry, Hyundai s I was on had final drive problems, Brandt in Rotorua did a evaluation on a machine for the boss, picked up things like hyd oil overheated and damaged pump, pressures down on one pump, hoses stiff because of hot oil, leak off on motors, generally it was money well spent.

Most machines will have had regular oil analysis reports in their service records, make sure you ask to see these. One large hire firm down here tried to substitute reports when I was assessing a machine they were selling, I caught them out by accident when I requested further data from the analyzing company. Just plain fraud.

@XR500 what type of country are you on and how much experience?
Also what type of projects?
You can pm if you prefer

Its all Central North island pumice and ash. Easy digging but is hard on the grousers of my dozer. Welding grouser bar on this winter is not a job I am looking forward to.

Got a couple of 10 acre blocks to put roads into, building platforms on same, improve the topography to entice horsey people to buy. Another road at the top of the farm to improve access and improve the potential to lease the better parts of the farm , general recontouring work as required to improve resale value of the flatter parts of the farm, some access tracks into our forest in preparation for future harvest.

Have put 1200 hours on our dozer over the years, and rented diggers when necessary, but looking at making the jump to owning one that will enable us to do stuff in the timeframe we want:D

@XR500 if you can drive a dozer you should be sweat and will about running cost with older gear
I would rather own a smaller machine with less hours
Down this way if i was going to buy a farm machine would be 13t zero turn machine with a blade and 500 wide tracks, lots of farms down here there farm tracks want take a 20t and wont fit through gate ways
Yes a 20t will move more bulk material and has a longer reach. Also transport cost to move a 20t is a lot more
Lots of farmers brought machines after the cyclone down here then come to realize they didn't have the time to use them, had no idea and excavators cost money to maintain.

Yep I fix them, I would check for parts support, sum of the odd ball or uncommon machines, are difficult to source parts in a timely manner,
In the 35 years, I have been fixing earthmoving machines, Hitachi and cat, have been the best for literature and support.
A backhoe, might be something, you should consider, For ditching, and road able for between blocks.
Smell the Hydraulic oil, if it smells burnt, stay away,
Piston Hydraulic pump failures, and undercarriage, are the two biggest costs on a Digger.

I’ve got a 312 Cat for all our farm maintenance.12 ton,has been a great machine clocked up some hours in her now.We had a 20 ton before this but found it an over kill,but that’s just my opinion.

Yip, thanks for all that. I'm going to go measure my gateways after some of the comments, as replacing 30 gateways 'cause I bought a digger that won't fit through would really rip my undies!

It will fit. I can guarantee it 100%. It's a digger after all.

Now please note that as a result of that comment I am not volunteering my time as a fence and gate repairer!

I have to walk the dozer through very slowly as it is: approach at an angle, get one blade cutting tip through then slew slightly and get the other side through. The last thing I need to be doing is fixing gates and fences:omg:

Mate with a 20 ton you can just pull out the gate posts and move them over a meter and push them back in :D
Ok that might not make your gates any wider but then you can just convert to Taranaki gates instead :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by XR500

Its all Central North island pumice and ash. Easy digging but is hard on the grousers of my dozer. Welding grouser bar on this winter is not a job I am looking forward to.

Got a couple of 10 acre blocks to put roads into, building platforms on same, improve the topography to entice horsey people to buy. Another road at the top of the farm to improve access and improve the potential to lease the better parts of the farm , general recontouring work as required to improve resale value of the flatter parts of the farm, some access tracks into our forest in preparation for future harvest.

Have put 1200 hours on our dozer over the years, and rented diggers when necessary, but looking at making the jump to owning one that will enable us to do stuff in the timeframe we want:D

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Ok, I'm going to be the nay-sayer, here goes.

I think this is over all a terrible idea. Most of what you have described above looks like capital works, which in general is tax deductible. Repairs and maintenance on heavy machinery in general can be very expensive, even if doing the work yourself. Try pricing up a new main hydraulic pump or track motor for whatever you get keen on.
It's amazing what an experienced operator can achieve. Most of us bumble around clocking up the hours on the machine taking at least 4 times as long as what a professional operator can do. Factor in all the time it sits around rusting away and falling apart just from lack of use and 50 to 60k buys a lot of machine hours. Which you're not spending all at once and have the use of the balance to invest etc.

We all like to play in the sand box. I get it, me included. But I have seen a shit ton of money wasted on worn out gear that looked pretty good at first glance. You have the dozer to satisfy that itch. For the balance that you need a digger for just pay someone.

Regarding gateways, mine is on 500-600 mm tracks and fits through a twelve foot gateway comfortably.
Sitting on your own digger is also great for your "mental health".
And you can do things when it suits you. Not when a contractor has time to fit you in.
I actually need a seven or eight ton as well. So I can get in to swamps to let most of the water away prior to getting in there with my 20.
Breaking through the crust of a swamp and sinking a 20 ton digger is not much fun.
Hence I now own a PTO winch as well.

We've got a 14t zero swing komatsu on the farm and couldn't be without it now. Wouldn't want anything bigger as it's thirsty enough as it is, but any smaller and it wouldn't be capable of lifting larger logs etc. even did some logging with it and it'll lift a trailer off a truck with a lifting point welded on closer to the cab. Can move it around the place on an old 8 wheeler we've got. Would have to walk a 20t everywhere it all adds up. Plus it can dig a narrower track if you don't need a highway

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Originally Posted by Got-ya

Ok, I'm going to be the nay-sayer, here goes.

I think this is over all a terrible idea. Most of what you have described above looks like capital works, which in general is tax deductible. Repairs and maintenance on heavy machinery in general can be very expensive, even if doing the work yourself. Try pricing up a new main hydraulic pump or track motor for whatever you get keen on.
It's amazing what an experienced operator can achieve. Most of us bumble around clocking up the hours on the machine taking at least 4 times as long as what a professional operator can do. Factor in all the time it sits around rusting away and falling apart just from lack of use and 50 to 60k buys a lot of machine hours. Which you're not spending all at once and have the use of the balance to invest etc.

We all like to play in the sand box. I get it, me included. But I have seen a shit ton of money wasted on worn out gear that looked pretty good at first glance. You have the dozer to satisfy that itch. For the balance that you need a digger for just pay someone.

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I know exactly where you are coming from, the accountant (my wife:D) and I have discussed this in detail for quite some time.

But at a conservative charge out rate (90/hr) our $22K dozer plus 5K of track splitting, rebuilt starter motor, new batteries, oils filters, plus 14 grand of diesel over the last 10 years has saved us 67 grand. Yes, we value our time at nil$, cause that's what farmers just have to do.

And as others have said, getting jobs done when you want to do them, making something yourself from scratch (that's not just me, my wife gets almost more satisfaction out of doing development work on the dozer.

Some people shout themselves a new car every 10 years, something I couldn't bring myself to do. We'll buy ourselves a digger instead:D

So as long as we get the 'right' digger, we should be winners all round

In the central North island anyway ~ 20 ton machines in forestry will have been mostly used for land preparation, and to a lesser extent roading. Logging crews typically don't use machines much smaller than 25 t (and commonly 30+) in my experience.

Ex land prep machines will have had a reasonably hard life trundling over cutover, but will ( should!) have comprehensive guarding required for bush work.

If cost is a real issue you could try importing a used one from Japan, only issue is most are fixed buckets, no quick hitch.
I have imported 2 x dozers from Japan and have been quite impressed with the quality. The first one was a Komatsu, bought it to do one job, used it for 6 months or so then sold it for more than I bought it for. Bugger me a year later I landed another job where we needed one so did it again, the 2nd one was a Cat, sold that at the end of the job for another gain as well. Was impressed with both buys having just looked at photo's on web pages. The Japs would fall on there sword if they sold you shit gear. The current NZ$ to Yen rate is bloody good at the moment.
Do not buy any 2nd hand machinery from China

You've got me interested now:thumbsup:

I have talked to guys that brought brand new gear from China and by the time they have gone through and replaced all the hydraulic hoses, changed and serviced the hydraulic setup a couple of times to get it working right, beaten the electrical glitches into submission and fought with non-standard sizing on some things they haven't saved as much as they thought...

I hear about getting contacted gear in as well, but when you aren't close to town and it's a mission to get gear in sometimes getting contractors isn't as advantageous as the financials look if the same equation is worked out with the operator living a few minutes down the road.

The unfortunate thing with this, is that it makes no difference if you own the gear or contract (or even rent) the gear in, breakdowns will still happen and the time-loss costs still apply even though you might not own the gear.

If I was in that position (considering purchasing a machine) I would be letting my fingers do the majority of the work and seeing what is available around the bazaars. I have known guys overlook a smaller machine with a lot of attachments for a bigger unit that looks cheaper and find it hasn't been the right choice - and also the other way around so a very good assessment of what you want the machine to do and a chat with someone who supplies the things might help guide the size you actually need.

A large part of this equation is the status of the machine, it's health, how good and gentle the usual operator(s) were, what sort of work it was used for, how many hours it has done vs how well it's service and repair history is documented, and the general feeling you get when you start it from cold and park your bum in it and set it in motion for the first time. If the thing walks in circles its a sign haha. Possibly a terrifying $$$$ amount bill incoming!

In this case if purchasing a machine the actual type of machine doesn't really matter and I tend to run the same exercise when purchasing everything from vehicles to engineering equipment to commercial boats and marine gear.

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Originally Posted by XR500

I know exactly where you are coming from, the accountant (my wife:D) and I have discussed this in detail for quite some time.

But at a conservative charge out rate (90/hr) our $22K dozer plus 5K of track splitting, rebuilt starter motor, new batteries, oils filters, plus 14 grand of diesel over the last 10 years has saved us 67 grand. Yes, we value our time at nil$, cause that's what farmers just have to do.

And as others have said, getting jobs done when you want to do them, making something yourself from scratch (that's not just me, my wife gets almost more satisfaction out of doing development work on the dozer.

Some people shout themselves a new car every 10 years, something I couldn't bring myself to do. We'll buy ourselves a digger instead:D

So as long as we get the 'right' digger, we should be winners all round

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Ok fair enough you are set on it.
My suggestion is to look for one with a blade on it. If doing any steep work, they really come into their own. I have seen fence lines cut that a digger without a blade could not look at. You may find it's good enough to sell the dozer and just have one machine.

Top speed for the dozer is 9.5kph. Gets from one end of the farm to the other a hell of a lot quicker than any tracked digger. It'll be worth bugger all now. 45 years old so will be hardly worth selling:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by XR500

I have to walk the dozer through very slowly as it is: approach at an angle, get one blade cutting tip through then slew slightly and get the other side through. The last thing I need to be doing is fixing gates and fences:omg:

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Sounds like your place has a lot of fun toys.

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Originally Posted by XR500

Top speed for the dozer is 9.5kph. Gets from one end of the farm to the other a hell of a lot quicker than any tracked digger. It'll be worth bugger all now. 45 years old so will be hardly worth selling:thumbsup:

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45 years old? Just run in!