And the beauty of all that is, when it finally shits itself, you can leave it where it is:ORLY:Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
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And the beauty of all that is, when it finally shits itself, you can leave it where it is:ORLY:Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
I wouldnt. Even dead they are still worth good money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
Shes a good old beast alright Simon. Thats what you get when you combine ample displacement / torque with a low stress motor with huge oil pan.
Lots of lazy power with lots of clean oil = long life.
I can only hope that I do that well with my cruiser. 161k now no issues. Mine sounds better than yours though!
They apparently need a triple flush if it's gone full distance. Wouldn't help the cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikee
Shssssssh, finger crossed here as worse case the torque converter is rooted and .................................ouchQuote:
Originally Posted by 6x47
Those ancient patrols/safaris can do anything except reach the open road speed limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
Nah, they can (at sea level). Mine was set up to go HARD at the beach, but was travelling up the Napier-Taupo foot to the floor up the left hand lane of the big hill passing lanes going my god this thing hates hills, and I realised no one was passing me on the right (inside) lane. I soon worked out why when i looked in the mirrors - Greta would have been in full war cry "HOW DARE YOU..." and Russian tank designers would have been taking notes. One of the better smoke screens I've laid that's for sure, when I got to the top of the hill it was about four corners before I saw anyone else in my mirrors. I guess they weren't brave enough to floor it through white out conditions!
As my mate says about his, 80-110 in 5 minsQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve123
yes but they last more than 100K kms generally without dramas unlike modern diesel utes.Quote:
Originally Posted by 6x47
Issues like the shudder could be lubricant, some if the mine utes had issues as the workshop was using g a castrol product yheyve been using for ever - on paper it appeared the same specs as per factory, changed to a delo product- caltex or chevron- with a major improvement
Can't believe what they do with small turbo engines power wise
, the old adage : no replacement but displacement for towing heavy loads up hills/ off road
You'll be long gone when the mighty 4.2tdi finally gives up the ghost! :D:D:D;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
With the GQ's, I tend to agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve123
The next generation, the GU's have quite a bit more pep to them. (we're talking in relative terms here!):ORLY:
Gu & gq best to things out the Nissan stable, since then mhew
Ha!! 0 to 100 in ten minutes!!
Just looked at the price of a new Hilux.:o I'm happy with 0-100 in ten minutes, cause the difference on price between that new hilux and my GU is 50 grand. Better 50 grand in my pocket and a tad slower off the mark. Better a day cleaning injector tips and fuel filters, replacing trans fluids than a week with 5 different computers trying to get once bunch of electrons to play nice with another bunch of electrons...all to get the truck to simply start and run.:cool:
I concede you have a point. F**ken computers...Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cambo
Hey guys, having this same issue with my 2023 GR Hilux - shudders in low 4th around 1 - 1100rpm @ 40 and 70kmp/h and will shudder and then drop back up to 3rd. I have taken it in last week and have had the TCM reset, Toyota have mentioned it has helped but it hasn't fixed the issue completely. They have suggested a Trans additive to help and that the lock up clutch is damaged ?
I had a small amount of water contamination on the first 15k km service in the Trans and diffs - this was changed with a flush and was recommended to come back for another flush in 500kms. In between the 2 flushes, one of the techs has reused the same crush washer and we had a trans leak. This was mentioned to them on the second flush and was fixed on the second flush. Once receiving the truck back, the shudder has started.
TNZ have come back and said that it was the water contamination that has caused Torque Convertor damage. I don't believe this to be the case as the shuddering came after the last flush and after the trans crush washer was reused.
1. Did we manage to get any answers from TNZ about other Toyotas doing this and why?
2. Does this sound like Torque Convertor damage/ lock up gear damage as they have claimed?
3. How many other Hilux's are doing this and what have TNZ done to remediate this ?
I am a little worried that they are only doing bare minimum in the way of diagnostics (seeing as they didn't replace a one use crush washer on a trans flush) and are just looking to pass the blame ? The truck has currently done 16,000km so definitely no expecting the torque convertor to let go regardless of the situation
What's everyone's thoughts ?
Cheers Brook
What is the source of the water ingress? That could be a fairly important factor here.
In any event if it was discovered at the first service, Toyota should be all over it as a fitness for purpose thing - I would be asking the question in the strongest terms of how the water got in there that they discovered and why the transmission was not properly sealed from the factory considering it's a ute for one, and two we live in a temperate climate where surface water on roads is expected.
It is definitely something Toyota will want to wiggle out of, fuck em though 100% warranty and product fitness issue. But personally I've had enough of new vehicle dealers trying to escape their liability for going out and hawking crap gear with unrealistic promises.
Unlikely (depending on the volume of lube lost) that a leak from a reused crush washer would cause the shudder issue - but then I would be expecting that a trans should survive a minor amount of water ingress for a few thousand k's with no damage to critical components. This is a very poor look for the model if this is the case, but in reality we need a little more info on what happened to the thing and how the water got in and how much there was.
Comparison, I've forded stuff with my Ranger multiple times - a couple of occasions deeper than 500mm as every exit was flooded and no option as we couldn't remain where we were. No water ingress at all in any components.
Fixed it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
Couple of issues I can see...Quote:
Originally Posted by GR Journey's NZ
1# where did the water come from? Not very easy to get it in to be fair. Unless it had been parked in a high flowing river for quite a while....
2# a crush washer isn't going to affect anything. I'd say it was left loose. Even if over torque they don't leak like that. And then it would've needed to dump a crapload before any issue appeared.
#3 you say you had a couple of flushes done. With a proper trans flush machine, or just pan drained and refilled? They are 2 totally different things and 12-15l difference in fluid used. Just a drain and refill would explain the bung being left loose......
And I hope whoever did it actually used the correct oil.
Thanks heaps for replying!
Sooo a little more info - the Hilux gets used as a Hilux, camping, overlanding etc (Insta: @GR_Journey'sNZ) so it sees fords regularly. Trans fluid is a red colour when fresh, removed fluid was like a clean pinky colour - no other contaminants, not mud, etc reported. I estimate around 150 - 200km were driven on contaminated fluids with no signs of any issues while contaminated.
After looking a bit deeper into Hilux wading depths, I've found 700mm is the max wading depth. The diff openings are on the top of the pumpkin, no more than 300mmm from the ground! Transmission and VSC have breathers on the top of the transmission tunnel but highly doubt they are 700mm from the ground.
I looked back over the invoices received from GWD and they have only "Replaced" the fluids and can confirm today via email that no flushes were done at contamination time. I believe this to be the crucial issue seeing the complexity of the transmission systems and the little crevasses contaminants can hide. The only way I know of is a complete transmission flush via a flushing machine ?
After a email today from GWD, they are blaming the contamination for the damage - I'm saying the system should of been flushed properly which has caused remaining water in the system. Am I crazy ?
Yea a 4.2 Volt Hybrid haha
Yes if they saw there was contamination from water, they shouldn't of just done a drain and refil. That's on them now if any damage has been done. Their job was to inform you of what was needed to clear that issue so as not to have an issue. A drain a refill is simply negligent imo... especially from a dealer.Quote:
Originally Posted by GR Journey's NZ
Yeah, agree with Cambo there should have had a full flush and as mandatory action not just a customer's choice. If the customer didn't want to pay I would have been getting them to sign a waiver accepting liability for any transmission problem going forward basically voiding the warranty if the thing wasn't fully serviced and flushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by GR Journey's NZ
As far as fording depth, the rule is no deeper than center of the diff housing unless the vehicle has been properly prepped - regardless of claims. What Ford has in the small print is that the 800mm fording depth also means that the thing needs to be checked for water ingress at the earliest opportunity it's not a "sweet, keep on trucking bruva" exercise. By special prep I mean axle seals checked and springs in the seals replaced with orings (which provide a more consistent tension on the shafts), breathers extended to the top of the cab somewhere, all low plugs checked and sealed with some form of semi adhesive non-conductive grease, and things like the dipstick tube orings (generally just a push in fit) and air intake joints given a bit more help to actually stay sealed.
The biggest problem with fording is that normally the vehicle arrives at the swim hot as heck, everything warm and expanded including all of the fluids in the diffs and if you don't give it time to cool before dunking the thing in (usually f**king cold) water everything contracts really quickly. When everything contracts, it drags water into the components and not just through the breather vents - it can pull it in through the seals on the shafts and into electrical plugs. The latter can be a major problem as it can put a vehicle into limp mode which might mean you need to be recovered from whatever you're in!
Thanks heaps team,
The finding of the contamination was at it's first general service @ 15k kms. That's when the fluids were first drained, no flush given. Told to return after 500kms to have it drained again; I should of clicked then...
I'm under the impression that they've found contamination, it was then up to them to "guarantee to the best of their abilities" (if that's even a thing with dealerships) that the system was cleared properly - looks like another shortcut biting them in the arse ?
I'll keep you posted, was supposed to be at the 4x4 expo in Sep... not sure if I'll see that now - been told torque convertors are ex Japan possibly 6 weeks out.
Cheers guys
https://perthdiesel.store/products/p...f-breather-kit
Install these. They should be the first thing you do to any 4WD that will be used around water.
Buy fish tank aerated filters, much cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayden C
I suggest you get in under your vehicle and measure the heights of the diffs, transmission etc. You’ll find that they are a lot higher than 300mm… there’s two Gen 8 GUNs and a Gen 7 KUN in my driveway and I’d estimate the top of the rear diff to be between 450-500mm, and the transmission breather is at least 700mm.Quote:
Originally Posted by GR Journey's NZ
I don’t want to sound mean spirited but if you’re going to get into a debate with Toyota then you need to get basic facts right. If you say 300mm to one of the people you’re arguing with, it won’t help. Go measure them properly.
When you’ve done that hold the tape measure up against your doors and note how deep you must’ve been to get water into the transmission. Again, not wanting to be mean and accusatory, but I am wondering how deep the water was and how long you were sat stationary in it…
The very first thing I do to my 4WDs is fit raised diff & gearbox breathers. The very first mod, when they’re brand new. Unfortunately not enough guys know to do this. Water ingress was bad enough on traditional manual boxes but with the trick autos these days it’s a disaster as you are finding out the hard way. This has been debated elsewhere at great length and one of the conclusions was how annoying it is that none of the manufacturers fit raised breathers to 4WDs. And also how important it was to understand maximum wading depth and how to traverse water crossings correctly.
The debate about whether the dealership should have flushed the transmission from the get-go is one thing, but how the water got in there in the first place is quite different and I think you are going to struggle to get them to cover this I’m sorry to say. They’ll simply say that you went in water that was too deep.
Black Hawk Diff breathers in the week after contamination was found, sorted there!
300mm was just a rough guess, will definitely measure it when it returns,
I mean the question is, how did water get in there in the first place ? I've not sat in water for periods of time, literally only fording but all prior to having breathers installed though...
I definitely haven't given anyone dimensions, will see how this plays out with Toyota,
Thanks guys,
Extended breathers are only part of the fix - the axle seals are a real weakness as the design of the seal is to keep solids out and lubricant in, not to keep fluids out. There is only a wiper lip on the outside of the seal, and it really only keeps chunks off the inner fluid lip which deflects lubricant back into the case. With marine applications, we've been having some success fitting slim series seals which are usually a little over half the thickness of standard seals and installing them in tandem back-back (one seal normal way round and the inside one reversed). This allows packing grease into the space between the seals, and despite this I've still found water ingress between the two seals in the grease between the seals! This is on hydraulics gear that's immersed in water and operating so doesn't have the same contraction problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyblown
I've not really found a successful way to do the back-back seal thing with automotive applications, as the recesses are designed to fit the seal they ship with and that's your whack jack. 'Marinising' the seals by replacing the tension spring with an O-ring and giving a more consistent tension on the seal lip helps, especially if your seal keeps chucking the spring out and destroying itself (often a sign of a bit of shaft runout out at the seal area). But as soon as you dunk the seal in water, especially if it is hot and it cools rapidly you are liable to drag water in past the seal into the case. This is on all shafts, not just axles so the transmission and transfer cases are liable to have this happen as well. The Safari I had for a while had a buggered PTO shaft for the gearbox driven winch, this used to drag water in as soon as the thing got wet. Pain in the arse!
It got in because you’ve submerged your transmission in water.Quote:
Originally Posted by GR Journey's NZ
I’m picking that you’re probably discussing this elsewhere as well, being a new member on here, with no hunting, shooting or fishing posts to your name. Perhaps you arrived here because of a Google search. You’ll be probably looking for some support because you know you are potentially facing a very big repair bill. All this is perfectly understandable.
The bottom line is that this is an avoidable problem that Toyota (or any other 4WD manufacturer) is going to place fairly and squarely on you. Water in the transmission, whether older manual boxes or more modern auto boxes, is an age-old problem that always has exactly the same underlying cause. If you say you have only been fording shallow water and never stationary in water <700mm then I am going to sit here and probably not believe you. That is not only an online forum problem, but also the problem you will have with Toyota.
And I can’t say I really blame them. All manufacturers have to draw a line somewhere. The 700mm max wading depth has been cast in stone for many years going back to the 80 series Land Cruisers and 4th or 5th gen Hilux.
Good luck. I hope you get it resolved in your favour, but you should probably start planning otherwise.
Against that, as a new vehicle the standard procedure for rectifying contamination at the dealer/maintainer appears to not been have followed which looks to have possibly created more issues. Everyone makes mistakes, but stacking two or more mistakes on each other does not make a clear cut case! Water contamination is one thing, but not doing a full machine flush is in my mind very slack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyblown
It's not a point of getting into the inevitable argument, but I'm hearing so many of these situations with dealers now that are in this category that it's starting to become a regular. I've had my own issues where the dealers answer was a $9K parts swap after a $1K one didn't work - that wouldn't have worked either but after the discussion of "who is paying for your exploratory chuck bits at it exercise" and being told it wasn't a warranty job and we can have the discussion if it doesn't fix the vehicle I kinda said hell nah. In the end it was all computer and electronic related and the identified repair wouldn't have fixed the vehicle's fault.
Thanks guys all valid opinions i guess,
Totally heard that the dealer has to draw a line somewhere, I paid for the flushes originally seeing as ingress couldn't be proven either way - I expect the correct and full remedial works to be completed. A "Master Toyota technician" should know that this needs to be on a full flush machine - This is negligent and the main issue I see for damages. This is a common issue with dealership serviced vehicles - even more so now all industries are facing staff shortages..
In saying this though, if all "Practical measures" were taken to remove all contaminants then this would likely be my issue. Unfortunately for them, they have been tasked with removing the contaminants and have failed to do so. Has the water ingress from me caused this or has their lack or workmanship to remove contaminants caused the damages - no one will ever know i guess.
Resolution - New torque convertor installed, full flush driveline with video evidence (I don't believe a work they tell me now), free labour and consumables, I just pay for the convertor ($1600 excl.)
In all, fairly happy with the resolution, this was never about "getting one over" Toyota, this was about getting what you've paid for - in this case, taking the best practical steps to remove all contaminants from the contaminated driveline - two wrongs never make a right.
Good result. I would be happy with that if offered to me in the circumstances you outline.