Thread: proper pointers

Recently on another forum there was a thread of pointers running in the European Championship in Serbia. There were a few interesting comments, and not being a member there I thought I would share them here in the hope the original poster sees them.

There is a massive divergence between a 'Grande Quete" bred pointer on the continent and the ones bred in the UK and Scandinavia, to the point they are as removed from the act of hunting as much as the UK show lines are. They are bred for ever increasing range and galloping style, and less and less for nose and pointing instinct. In the GQ style trials, a dog can win without finds if he shows sufficient style. There are many famous instances of dogs, famous GQ champions, demonstrating such poor bird work they would be useless in a normal days shooting. Reports of pointers hunting with the eye and not the nose, a sign of the rumoured greyhound crosses for galloping style and speed, are rife also.
It's easy to get distracted by the glamour of such dogs, yet did anyone see any bird work in that video? Fashion is a funny thing. For as long as you are not breeding hunting dogs for hunting, by either conformation shows or in trials where the best hunting dog isn't found instead the best runner is, we may as well all buy toy dogs to show, or get into greyhound racing - leave the pointer alone.

I'll leave you with a video to counter the one posted on the other place. You can always rely on the Scandis for stoicism, breeding dogs for what they were intended for. Please excuse the Alice Cooper theme song, I'm saying they breed better pointers, not have good taste in music... Shooter is a good shot too

JA Grande's Krutt - YouTube

Dog was very good, shooting was very average imo, 2 blokes only managed 3 out of 7 birds inside 20 yrds with autos?

Guy in the video had an o/u? must be my eyes

Your right sorry, just took it for granted as you can hear 5-6 shots. He was slow on his second which threw me.

Nice one pointer , that's inspired me to work on my pot licker on the steady to shot. There's no way my dog could sit and watch a bird flap around in front of him like that . What about your dog(s) pointer do yours have that degree of discipline ? .

the scandinavians also produce plenty of pot lickers too.

Good work that dog! How have you guys trained your pointers to do that? I've joined up a class with Jet and we are practicing running together from one mat to another and trying to stop and get him into a down asap on the mat. I think the instructor plans to get us to a send away and hit the breaks into a down much like on this video.

the stop or the act of pointing ?

The stop at a distance. I have had Jet sit and watch me playing tennis and not flinch, but once I've sent him away on birds the hearing seems to go.

start by stopping him at a short distance and work your way out.
how good the level of control you have will be tested once you start adding temptation and distraction.

better add this is easier once you have built up the desire to retrieve, putting directions etc is just a follow on from there.

Originally Posted by kawhia

the scandinavians also produce plenty of pot lickers too.

I'm sure every country has it's share some more than others mind you... My point was to illustrate that although nice to look at, the dogs coming out of countries specifically breeding for the Grande Quete style trials are the exact same problem as breeding specifically for conformation shows, just extremes on the spectrum of the same problem.

Munsey, No I don't have that level of polish on my dogs. They all stand their game as expected, but the steady to flush is always the bone of contention with NZ hunters. I have one pointer here who I can drop on the whistle at the flush if I am close, however he has been allowed to be at the fall of the shot for most of his working life so thats a big if. I feel there are times when a dog on the go at the flush is an advantage. That saying, a steady to flush dog is simply the best for cleaning up broken coveys of quail, produce one, shoot, on to the next without disturbing anything. It goes without saying if you were to take up trialling you would bring up a dog very differently, however unsteady to flush is OK for most NZ hunters.

The point of the video wasn't the particular dogs manners, it was a case of comparing the 'great' Italian dogs running for nothing in the other video, versus an average scandianavian dog pointing and retrieving game shot over him. Big difference, I know what I would own of the two

you would also need to have an understanding of the game available in countries like serbia, or more important the fact most are not resident, it's in somes ways there version of a pigeon trial.
unsteady to shot is more a reflection of the average level of training most gun dogs get before taken into the field, as a nation we have a poor expectation of basic gundog work, it's common owning an unsteady dog with the excuse of wanting the dog on it asap.......... a marked bird even a runner is alot easier to pick up.
Sporting Scene- Classic Game Shooting Grouse. - YouTube
watch this clip to see how an unsteady dog fucks up the flush and the chance of a shot........ nice to hear the term 'english pointer' used too.

Originally Posted by kawhia

it's in somes ways there version of a pigeon trial.

You'll have to explain that one for me

Very interesting post, Pointer...it is curious how we in each country modify the work of the breeds...the retrieve was never a requirement for the EP on the grouse, was it?