Log tongs vs snug chain

Bit off topic but figure there are a few here that may have answers....

Have a firewood job coming up, old man pines about 35-40m and about 3.5-4' diameter (going by the way my 3" bar vanished into the damn thing) last time I whacked it into lengths about 3 rings long. Put the chain round them and had a mate drag them up the bank with his surf at speed. This resulted in losing a couple when the cabin came lose and taking off down the bank.... Ideal

Not the best set up for h&s either with lengths of wood moving fast in the air. This time looking at winching them up with my LandCruiser.

Do I stick with the chain or find a pair of tongs? Would the tongs stop the logs from rolling as much? Any tricks to stop the end digging into the bank? Plan on having a pulley block in a tree at the top of bank as high as i can

put a ring on end of chain instead of a hook.......or use wire strop to noose them.... to stop end digging in,keep chain/strop close to end of log... 3-4" round and 3 lengths long isnt even a fence post...so no big deal weight wise....heck a 2.5ton transport strop would be more than enough...tie big loop in one end and either lasso with that and hook chain onto the hook end ,or hook chain onto big loop and thread strop back through the triangle metal bit to form noose.

I have a set of tongs, but not sure if they would open to 4' and I would have thought they were more for lifting than towing...I have one of the proper chains for towing, the hook doesn't come adrift when towing...I'll put up a photo in the morning.

umm is it 3-4 inches or 3-4 feet through????I wouldnt think a 4 foot log of any length would move easily...but to stop it digging in...cut V groove around it and notch front face so strop will bite in and keep it pointed in right direction..sort of like end of ya knob..... the problem with pulley block is if you run out of room..you will need it anchored up on flat so you can pull right up to it....
if you need to use chain and hook....put belly of hook against log opening to outside.... but a D or loop in end will fix your issue ,wire strop much better.

Should have said, used chain with open loop on end and chain fed back through it to make a loop. trouble was getting the chain to grip to a log, went round the logs twice a couple of times (amazing how much length that took of the chain) Did actually use tie down strops to make up the length needed.

Old mate in the surf had to put his foot down and try keeping them moving/
Bouncing, was a good moment to stand well clear

If using winch plan on cutting them a lot longer, 9500lb winch, may run a couple of pulleys, shall see how it goes. Plenty of dynamic winch rope and extention straps

Making a v groove for it to sit in makes sense, didn't both when I was doing so many short lengths but worth the hassle if I'm not doing as many.

3-4 foot diameter, think the last one was 37m tall, good news is they are already on the ground thank to the amount of rain /wind we have had. Bad news is they went down the bank.... Least the but end is pointing up

confusion stemed from the 3" bar bit LOL......
ok so you already using chain with open loop..... the notch thing will definately help...bugger you so far away or would give you wire strop..... go see the lads down on wharf,dont know if you have a cookes down there,but any one who can splice wire rope will whip one up in no time...might cost a box of beerzies.you COULD use a couple of 4" nails through links of chain close to ring to stop them moving back through it???? maybe more hassle than its worth.

Hey md, Have a length of wire rope somewhere.... Came on the winch and I got a second loop out on the other end to use as an extension, shall have a dog through the shed for it. Sounds like there is no major advantage of the log tongs in my situation

There is a Cooke's in invercargill I have used before if I run short on anything.

much much safer to winch them up, a simple wire rope choke won't slip with a constant tension, sounds like you've already dodged some bullets . . . . that size stuff/energy required doesn't take any prisoners.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 223nut

Hey md, Have a length of wire rope somewhere.... Came on the winch and I got a second loop out on the other end to use as an extension, shall have a dog through the shed for it. Sounds like there is no major advantage of the log tongs in my situation

There is a Cooke's in invercargill I have used before if I run short on anything.

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If you going to Cooke's get a proper chocker made up, I had one but sold it.

@Tentman yeah it wasn't the safest thing I have been involved in.... Made sure I wasn't downhill when they were on the move.

David, think I can make do with what I have but will bear it mind.

Just trying to find a safer / easier way. Cutting your own firewood is enough hard work without making harder on myself

If you coming down to Invercargill I have a length of wire rope that’ll just need the love from Cooke’s
PM me

This is the shape of the hook for dragging logs by chain, as used behind bulldozer and chain don't slip off the log

Attachment 171450

This is the tongs I have, at a quick measure they would do up to 800mm, so you would need a far bigger set.

Attachment 171451

I’d make up a yoke and and drive pins into the log ends to secure it, then roll the bastards. No good if you’ve got some decline though


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I’d snipe the log n use a wire rope strop so the rope/strop pulls from the middle of the log. Uses less strop that way. Could pay to bevel front end (towing end) of log.


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@MSL trees were standing about 40m off the side of the driveway and downhill vertically maybe 15m they fell straight down the hill so no way to roll them up, much better to drag from an end.
@tiroahunta I suspect if I drag from the middle it's going to get snagged between any trees/ vegetation left, yes putting some sort of bevel on the front face will save it digging in, may have to put it all the way round if it rolls, easier than the "skidding cones" I have seen around
@SiB I'll take you up on that offer as mine has not come too light, not sure when I'll be over in the big smoke again.
@DavidGunn similar size chain (mines still shiny) has an open eye on one end then a standard hook (able to go between the links and make adjustable loop) on the other

Cheers for all the help and advice, am a few weeks from getting started so trying to think it all through. Having to bring my old LandCruiser over to the island, bit of a cost for that but at $175/m for dry wood at the moment there is plenty of logs there to make up for it

I recovered some very heavy logs from deep down in a gully by using a 2:1 snatch block on the log choker and a change of direction snatch block at the top of the gully so I could simply drive away with my Land Rover. A lot more refined than a straight snatch, but used quite a bit of 13mm SWR.

Got a bully now, but all that does is make you take on even bigger logs, and I still get pushed about with the odd monster:omg: Gum can be veeery heavy stuff

@223nut.
I assume your on the mainland. I would not recommend putting shock loads onto chains. Use wire rope with steel core a d proper choker bell and talurit. A double purchase opening block shackled ahead of the choker stop may halve the load.
The safest option is to use a swing boom crane of sufficient rating.
Failing this and depending on what is on top of the 15m cliff , you might consuder building an 'A Frame', the base of each leg of the A frame able to securely pivot back and forth in sockets well anchored. The crossbar of the A frame can support a snatch block. Your winch rope runs through the snatch block a d down to your log. The A frame is lowerwd so the block is suspended out over the cliff. As the log is winched up to the top the A frame can pivot on its feet to near vertical thus bringing the log over the top of the bank and laying stable in a position whence it can be unhooked and then rehooked to an extraction vehicle up on the flat. This setup requiresong strong logs or beams to construct the A frame and sold footings. You would need one winch additional to raise and lower the A frame boom as required.
Be aware of BUSHCODE Regs. Incorrect loadings on this sort of gear wire ropes chokers, deadmen and other anchors and tiebacks et al can be huge. You are talking some very hea y loads especially when trying to break out or drag over an obstruction.

Hey woody, on the island.... Didn't know about shock loading chain, will sort a wire rope before I get started again.

Hoping to replace the a frame idea with using a couple of remaining trees at the top of the bank. Rope up high with pulley on to try and stop it digging into the ground.

Whenever using winch / machinery I try and stand well clear, have seen a few 4wd recoveries gone wrong

Understood. You may be able to improve that by arranging a cantilever pole horizontally somewhere up the tree trunk in a way that you can pivot the beam sideways once the load clears the lip. Anyway , stay safe. Doing that work can be high risk and breakaways happen so fast that escape is almost impossible. Never ever stand in the bight of the rope.

Quarter the logs with your long bar and some wedges made from branches.

Or black powder if you can get it.

Trying to pull 3-4 foot thick logs with anything other than heavy machinery is a hiding to knowhere. How is that $175 per cubic going to look after you twist the chassis after pulling the wagon onto its side.

@norsk had thought about halving the log but suspect that more sharp edges will cause it to stick, one way to find out! As for twisting the chassis... Don't really want to go there as the old girl is still road legal (or at least was 2yrs ago and 50km ago before rego went on hold)

To calculate the weight of you log you can use this formula. Radiata weight is approx 1 tonne per cubic metre.
Lets assume your log is 3 metres long and 90cm diameter.
Measure diameter in metres. I.e. 0.9metre.
Halve this to obtain radius. I.e. 0.45metre.
Square this and multiply by 3.142 and then multiply by the log length in metres.
0.45*0.45*3.142*say 3 metre length = 1.9 cubic metres = nearly 2 tonnes..
You need ropes, pins and strops, shackles and rings etc EACH OF WHICH NEED TO BE AT LEAST TRIPLE THAT FOR SAFETY RATING. I.E. 6 TONNES EACH rating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 223nut

@norsk had thought about halving the log but suspect that more sharp edges will cause it to stick, one way to find out! As for twisting the chassis... Don't really want to go there as the old girl is still road legal (or at least was 2yrs ago and 50km ago before rego went on hold)

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Quarter the logs,dont halve them.It sounds like you are pulling them obliquely to avoid the root plate? If so,with the gear you have,bust them into quarters,round off (snipe) the sharpe edges and get your connection point under the log as much as you can (provides lift)and towards the hillside (helps prevent rolling) and just take it from there.

You will manage and frustratingly what worked for the last bit might not work for the next bit etc,take it slowly and get well out of the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Woody

To calculate the weight of you log you can use this formula. Radiata weight is approx 1 tonne per cubic metre.
Lets assume your log is 3 metres long and 90cm diameter.
Measure diameter in metres. I.e. 0.9metre.
Halve this to obtain radius. I.e. 0.45metre.
Square this and multiply by 3.142 and then multiply by the log length in metres.
0.45*0.45*3.142*say 3 metre length = 1.9 cubic metres = nearly 2 tonnes..
You need ropes, pins and strops, shackles and rings etc EACH OF WHICH NEED TO BE AT LEAST TRIPLE THAT FOR SAFETY RATING. I.E. 6 TONNES EACH rating.

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Radiata is about 450-500kg per cubic.Oak would be about a ton a cube...
Ground resistance is the biggest enemy in this case,just to get a log moving on flat ground without lift you have to apply 130% of the logs weight to get it moving.Uphill + ground resistance = a whole lot more.

No. Green density. Sap wood. 1100kg / cubic metre
Viz
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ew_South_Wales

kind of explains why a full 3.8cube trailer makes wagon slow down a bit.....either way its plurry heavy. I remember helping LIFT a rimu log about 3' through and 10-12' long...two fellas added lift to the heuy up above screaming nuts off..we got it off ground and away it went smashing small trees n pungas till he got it above canopy and off to skid site....a flitch of 750kgs max load for jetranger wasnt very big.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Woody

No. Green density. Sap wood. 1100kg / cubic metre
Viz
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ew_South_Wales

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Green density and moisture content of radiata pine in the Hume region of New South Wales
March 2012Australian Forestry 75(1)
DOI:10.1080/00049158.2012.10676383
Authors:
Julian Moreno Chan
Institute for Commercial Forestry Research
J. C.F. Walker
Carolyn A Raymond
Southern Cross University

A one meter long,one meter wide Radiata log wont scale a ton per meter. Its not a square log.

Data from New Zealand

Radiata pine is commonly regarded as a 'medium' density softwood, with typical average tree basic density values of 400-420 kg/m3. However, wood samples can cover a wide range of basic density values between 350 and 550 kg/m3.

RADIATA PINE WOOD DENSITY - Webflow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Woody

@223nut.
I assume your on the mainland. I would not recommend putting shock loads onto chains. Use wire rope with steel core a d proper choker bell and talurit. A double purchase opening block shackled ahead of the choker stop may halve the load.
The safest option is to use a swing boom crane of sufficient rating.
Failing this and depending on what is on top of the 15m cliff , you might consuder building an 'A Frame', the base of each leg of the A frame able to securely pivot back and forth in sockets well anchored. The crossbar of the A frame can support a snatch block. Your winch rope runs through the snatch block a d down to your log. The A frame is lowerwd so the block is suspended out over the cliff. As the log is winched up to the top the A frame can pivot on its feet to near vertical thus bringing the log over the top of the bank and laying stable in a position whence it can be unhooked and then rehooked to an extraction vehicle up on the flat. This setup requiresong strong logs or beams to construct the A frame and sold footings. You would need one winch additional to raise and lower the A frame boom as required.
Be aware of BUSHCODE Regs. Incorrect loadings on this sort of gear wire ropes chokers, deadmen and other anchors and tiebacks et al can be huge. You are talking some very hea y loads especially when trying to break out or drag over an obstruction.

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What he said.
With my 11 tonne dozer only just managing to haul a 900 dia green gum tree on a levelish muddy surface, as I nosed over the edge of a drop off to haul it to the bottom the 10mm grade 70 chain snapped like a carrot. Been used to haul hundreds of gum trees, and had been fine. Just the resistance of the log combined with the weight of the dozer going over the lip stressed the chain beyond its 12T breaking strain
Luckily chain doesn't store energy like SWR, but swr is a bit more forgiving (till it snaps:wtfsmilie:)

Sounds like your recovery gear is on the edge of whats doable, and what others have suggested in breaking the load down into smaller pieces will help you grow a bit of safety factor back into your task.

Basic density of 450kg/cubic metre is at 12% .moisture content. Green density is the raw weight of a green log. It is dangerous to assume radiata logs only weigh 1/2 tonne per cubic metre. They weigh on average double that green. I've measured thousands during my career.

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Originally Posted by berg243

just whip down to the wharf when its dark and just borrow some heavy fishing net ( be plenty lying around on boats not being used ). cut your logs into rings then split and just haul small lots in your new net.

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Snow chains for trucks work well for rings.

Is that to keep it together when splitting or just moving them?When splitting (with the axe) I use a chain with a bit of bungee cord on it, holds the ring together rather than walking all over the place picking bits up

Will have to go looking, there was an old land cruiser single cab at the bottom of the Gully, it got a little squashed by the last tree but think the bonnet should be all good

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 223nut

Is that to keep it together when splitting or just moving them?When splitting (with the axe) I use a chain with a bit of bungee cord on it, holds the ring together rather than walking all over the place picking bits up

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For moving them, I like the idea of chain and bungee when splitting with an axe, not that I will ever use an axe again, I think I last used an axe before bungee was invented.

Sorry, correct me if I'm wrong.

You're planning on dragging 3-4 ft diamiter logs at 30-40m long, up hill using a landcruiser?

Sounds like a plan for wrecking your landcruiser.

Find someone with a tractor or bulldozer.

Pine halves in weight (just a guess) when it dries, if you can leave it for a year then it saves your back and gear a whole lot of work.

I find Pine to be a PITA to split by hand, too soft, splitter just sinks into it.

trick with spilltingpine by hand is to go around outside of block taking off chips as you go.3" wide works..dont split through guts as do with native,just keep working around outside till you get it allsplit and just have wee round in guts to split in half.
took a sheilah to shot me that one,having grown up splitting matai n maire it took some effort to make myself do it...but it works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Savage1

Sorry, correct me if I'm wrong.

You're planning on dragging 3-4 ft diamiter logs at 30-40m long, up hill using a landcruiser?

Sounds like a plan for wrecking your landcruiser.

Find someone with a tractor or bulldozer.

Pine halves in weight (just a guess) when it dries, if you can leave it for a year then it saves your back and gear a whole lot of work.

I find Pine to be a PITA to split by hand, too soft, splitter just sinks into it.

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He’s talking about short sections of log, three rings long, so maybe 1000mm? Pine does drastically reduce in weight once dried, but not generally in log form. I’ve only ever bothered to split big old man pine, never with a splitter, only with a chopping axe.


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Yep, logs cut to length that the truck can pull, entire tree is about 40m high.

Md is onto with the splitting technique, ideally an ace with a long cutting edge rather than a heavy sucker, my big tuatahi monstered through the last lot.

For those worried about me hurting my poor old landcruiser..... I may have gotten my hands on an early 90s bighorn 3.1 manual to do tractor duty

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Originally Posted by berg243

what has that bighorn done to you that you are going to be so rough on it.:(

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Become the victim of salt air and corrosion to the point it's off the road... and as a bonus the 3.1 turbo is going to have a bit more up and go than my 4.2 non turbo slug