Thread: Crossing show lines

France...I do not know that except for those of the Epagneul Breton where musculature, allure, correct height, etc are greatly valued and even the dentation (with some judges being pendantic to the point of counting every tooth (they recognise the breed as a HUNTING DOG in the purest sense)...I do know however that the English Setter is highly regarded in France and Italy. Furthermore bitches and dogs are confirmed before they can be bred from.

As I am strongly involved in spaniels, I can see the positive and negative points of the system. Along the FCI rules a dog needs 2 CACT or 2 CACIT's and a "very good" in show to become a FTCH or Int FTCH. This also has bad aspects. It would be O.K if they only accept dogs bred under this rules. But it's perfectly possible to trial a dog ( spaniel, pointing breed or retriever) bred in the U.K for work only. These dogs frequently are superior in pace, drive, style, etc...... He might never become a FTCH but still win many trials. Personally I think that the FCI system isn't good. I do not longer believe in the " good and beautifull" idea. In Germany there is a strong connection between field and bench for their working dogs and they have nothing to compete against the other countries in Europe. Looking for a bird dog I would never buy a GSP in Germany.

Trial spaniels in the UK. , these days, are very fast and stylish. But also are far to small, light in body and most dramaticly lack hunting desire and gamefinding ability. They look extremely spectacular on light ground but don't seem to know what they are doing. The ribcage is that tiny that there is no longer place for decent lungs and so lack stamina. I've seem French dual purpose springers been mixed up with British trial stuff and produce good, strong spaniels with plenty of size, ribcage and stamina. Dogs that still can fetch a pheasant out of a river with 3/4 feet high steep banks.

The same problem seems to be there with pointing dogs in France an Italy. Fast, stylish, almost always further ranging, but so much difficulties finding and pointing the game.
I work a lot with Irish working lines from people shooting woodcock. In either breed I don't think show dogs are the answer. Trying to find a decent kennel of shooting dogs, not selected on trial needs, but on shooting needd and try to mix this up with your trial dogs.

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

The same problem seems to be there with pointing dogs in France an Italy. Fast, stylish, almost always further ranging, but so much difficulties finding and pointing the game.
I work a lot with Irish working lines from people shooting woodcock. In either breed I don't think show dogs are the answer. Trying to find a decent kennel of shooting dogs, not selected on trial needs, but on shooting needd and try to mix this up with your trial dogs.

Hi Smut. I can't speak of spaniels as I have no experience whatsoever with them, but I essentially agree with the rest of your statement. In regards to your comment about Italian and French pointers, I agree 100% - there was a thread on this forum a while back about it. It is too easy to get caught up in the romance of big running dogs, but some of these Italian dogs are taking 2 years to stand game - many hundreds of birds. Some are hunting with the eye and not the nose, and the fact that thier trials system doesn't select for the best hunting dog anymore. I feel someone here looking to bring in a pointer to NZ would do well to avoid those countries.

As for your comment about putting trials blood to a good shooting line, one of our great dogmen here in NZ, Dr. Mortenson reckoned it was the quickest way to ruin a good shooting line haha!