.223 Rem vs. .308 Win

Alright, one for the target guys (warning, the following videos may cause an emotional response among former AR owners :psychotic:).

MK12 Mod 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRQ1...=9-HoleReviews

M110

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI1vkTdlfe8&ab_channel=9-HoleReviews

Both rifles running good quality factory ammo, and the rifles themselves are very good replicas/clones of the original service rifles (the M110 might be original).

Quite amazing to see how the 223 more than holds it's own with the 308 all the way out to 500 in terms of fast follow up shots, accuracy and first round hits, after that you can't really hear or spot hits on steel for the 223.

Ryan Cleckner (former US Army Ranger) wrote that during his time in (from 2000-2002 I think), the MK12 Mod 0 was considered to be the most accurate issued rifle, even next to the M24 (bolt action .308).

Amazing performance from the 77 grain pill, will be interesting to see what happens when these guys get their hands on a 6 ARC, suspect it will be better as it is flatter on paper.

I've shot both calibers in FTR.
An off the shelf Savage Model 12 .223 with a 28" 1:7 twist barrel shooting 80 gr A-Max and a Barnard 'P' Action .308 with 32" 1:10 barrel shooting 155 gr Scenars.

In light winds the two combinations have very similar ballistics.
In moderate winds upto 600 yards the .223 can still be competitive, higher winds at longer distances the .308 dominates.
With a heavier 185 gr projectile the .308 has a bigger advantage in heavier wind.

The .223 is a great beginners caliber.

was shooting steel yesterday with the 223 75eldm 2690fps could hear the steel ring fine at 700m on heavy plates. was testing to see how well we could hear and see targets to run a 223 class at prs matches

Greetings All,
To me the two cartridges are complementary rather than competitors. There is a considerable overlap between them but each has an edge for some things. The .223 is a great target and light game cartridge, up to deer with the right projectiles and the .308 excels for longer range target and general hunting. Perhaps the last word should be left to Bell. Bell was a proponent of lighter cartridges and reputedly killed a Cape Buffalo with a .22 Savage Hi-power. A cartridge with ballistics easily matched in the .223. When asked late in life what modern cartridge he would prefer for elephants he was reputed to have answered "The .308 with 200 grain round nose solids". Not surprising as he used the .318 Westley Richards late in his ivory hunting days with about those ballistics.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Originally Posted by Phil_H

I watch this thread with interest and take notice of your observations @grandpamac.

I have just acquired a cheap .223 as an exercise to see how it will fit in as a complement to the .308

I want something that will be a good varmint rifle - the hares are getting wiser and sitting just outside the reach of the .22WMR - but if a small pig or deer just happens along, I could use it on that as well.

Whilst I see @Tahr and others using a .223 to good effect on smaller deer, I am definitely not there at that level of skill or confidence - and accept that I may never be - and will most likely be passing any deer up if only out with my .223

The other one that I have considered and am still considering is a 6.5 Grendel. I also have the .243 and am loading that for long range varmints but tend to think of it as overkill, though most definitely wouldn't hesitate to use it on deer if the right opportunity presented itself.

Ohh, so many things to play with and so little time.....

Cheers
Phil

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Greetings Phil,
.308 and .223 rifles have lived in my rifle cupboard for the last 40 years, something that is unlikely to change. Had I procrastinated a little longer my latest .223 may have become a 6.5 Grendel, an extremely flexible cartridge that bridges the gap between light game and deer very well. I am happy with the .223 however and am currently sorting out some loads for the Speer 70 grain semi pointed projectile. These will easily duplicate the .22 Savage load with a 70 grain projectile at 2,800 fps. I shot enough goats years ago to know that the 55 grain works on them in the .223 and our local Sika are not much larger than goats so the 70 grain should suffice. Won't be trying them on Cape Buffalo though.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Originally Posted by Phil_H

The other one that I have considered and am still considering is a 6.5 Grendel. I also have the .243 and am loading that for long range varmints but tend to think of it as overkill, though most definitely wouldn't hesitate to use it on deer if the right opportunity presented itself.

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.243 should cover what you need there without needing the grendel - you could load some light varmint rounds 58g for the hares and carry some heavier 103g for deer if needed?

do you know the twist rate? some .243's have too slow twist for the heavier projectiles that are used by other 6mm - the heavier ones need 1:7.5 from the like of a 6 creedmoor etc

@Phil_H cleaning rod with a tight patch. Rotating jobby. Mark it for turns and on the rod. push it in until it completes one turn and measure how far it went in.

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Originally Posted by Phil_H

Tried that not 30 minutes ago @csmiffy. Not my day, it didn't even turn.......I even looked down the barrel to ensure that it still had rifling......:ORLY: Yep it has......

Heading out at this stage but will try again later. That said, as in my previous, the 58gr will stabilise or they won't......if they don't then I really do have problems.

Cheers
Phil

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Greetings Phil,
I have read that the .243 Baikal has a twist of 1 in 10 and would be surprised if it was any slower than 1 in 12. Either of these twists should stabilise the 58 grain Vmax. A couple of things to check with measuring the twist. The jag tip needs to be tight on the cleaning rod and one turn of thin tape around the jag to rod joint should help. It also helps to start the rod turning with your hand to get it under way. Just check that the rifling is righthand twist (clockwise looking from the breech) so you are not starting it in the wrong direction. I found the Parker Hale type rods with their wrap around jags work better if you have one. If you have a jointed rod you might want to tape the joints as well. Its a knack. If the barrel does turn out to be 1 in 12 your hunting load may need to be no more than 90 grains to stabilise.
Regards Grandpamac.

Hmm. Following with interest. I recently sold my Howa 1:9 that shot 55 grain beautifully, esp Aussie Outback and Belmont s.p. Trouble was at 300m the wind affected the 55’s significantly.
Have just put together a Howa heavy barrelled 1:8 action with composite stock, dpt over barrel suppressor and vortex 4-12x40 tactical scope. I’m hoping both 62 and Belmonts 77 grain ammo (when available) will be the bees knees.

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Originally Posted by Shadowsol

.243 should cover what you need there without needing the grendel - you could load some light varmint rounds 58g for the hares and carry some heavier 103g for deer if needed?

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I agree that owning a 243 makes the need for a Grendel redundant. In my mind they are both good low-recoil options for deer and are a considerable step up from a 223, but I would find it hard to justify owning both.

They go about their task quite differently; the 243 is fast and flat, the Grendel is a lot slower but retains good down range energy. TBH I think the 243 is a better deer cartridge, it has a bit more energy at typical distances and sometimes it’s refreshing to just point and shoot and not worry about rainbow trajectories

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Originally Posted by Phil_H

You are absolutely right @Shadowsol, and I have considered this even to the point of purchasing some 58 gr V-Max that I intend loading up over the next week.

We only have one .243 - Baikal MP-18 - and to date have not had a lot of success in getting it to shoot well. I have only been using factory loads thus far and in 80 to 100 grain. But that is a whole new thread in itself.
I will see how the 58gr V-Max go and if it does come right I will start to use for the cats, hares and possums that are running across the fields and start playing with getting a heavier deer load to shoot more accurately.

However I have always thought the .243 a little over-gunned for varmints, the .223 probably a perfect match but not so good if a large Red deer saunters out of the forest and the 6.5 Grendel sitting somewhere in between.

Cheers
Phil

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I had a Baikal in 243 for a while. I used Federal Powershok 80grain, I used to get < .75" groups @ 100m - and I'm sure the rifle could've done better with a better shooter behind it. I did notice if I started to warm it up to much I got some vertical stringing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phil_H

OK, if nothing else this thread has been informative and made me think.

Whilst the thread started out as .233 Rem vs .308 Win it has evolved a bit to how the two calibres compliment each other rather than compete.

It has come at the right time for me as I am a true blue .308 owner/user only because I like the round and am probably at a stage in my hunting career and life where I can't be bothered to change it.
It does everything that I want it to do for the big stuff so why would I want to.

The issue comes with the smaller predators. I need something a little bigger than .22 WMR

.233 Rem screamed out as the right fit......But Wait.....what if something bigger comes onto the field when I only have the .233 ? Do I feel confident enough to tackle a deer with a .233 ?
The short answer for me is no. Others with years more experience and better expertise than me don't find it a problem, and more kudos to them. It just isn't me.

So then the thoughts ...... how about a 6.5 Grendel ....... its like having a foot in both camps.....not to big for the small stuff and still can take the a deer with some authority.

Anyway, I have recently purchased a .223 to explore it capabilities and then the thought struck me. I have taken small varmints as in hares and cats with the .308 and it is just so easy.....just not a lot of the animal left after the act.

But then the first 'light bulb' moment. I am not shooting the hares and cats for the meat so what does it matter.

Out with the reloading book, reference to Gunworks for average prices, some hasty calculations...... and bear with me as these are very rough estimations ...... and this is what I came up with.

Reloading a .233 with 35gr V-max in front of 27gr of powder 3800 fps and cost of 81.25 cents per round
Reloading a .308 with 110gr SSP Varmint in front of 48gr of powder 3400 fps and cost of 108.25 cents per round

If you could get the .308 to shoot the Hornady 100gr Semi Jacket accurately there is a saving of 10 cents a round.

Now none of this is taking into account the cost of brass that would have to add up over time.....but as I said, rough calculations.

Anyway for me I think it has been a real 'light bulb' moment.....the second one.

Why am I wondering what rifle I should be carrying, and going to the expense of owning 2 rifles and 2 sets of loading gear when the venerable old .308 will do it all at a cost gap that isn't exorbitant? Well for what I need and can afford anyway.
Time to start loading and playing with some varmint loads in .308

I shall keep playing with the .223 as I am enjoying it at this time but I can see it and the .243 up for sale in the not to distant future.

Thanks for bearing with me....

Cheers
Phil

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Greetings Phil,
Congratulations, you are starting out on your quest for a .308 varmint load about 40 years after me. I wrote up the results in a couple of articles in NZ Guns recently but the basic results are that the further apart the projectile weights are the further apart on the target the point of impact will be. This is not such a problem these days with reliable adjustments on scopes. I shot some strings recently with 125 grain Speer TNT, 150 grain Hornady Interlock and 165 grain Hornady Interlock. The first two shot pretty close to the same POI with the 125 grains slightly to the right but the 165 grains were lower and well to the right. My M700 .308 has a long throat, about 3mm longer than my single shot Bergara so your results will almost certainly differ. It sounds as though you have got a decent deer load sorted out so it is just a matter of sorting out a load that matches or what adjustments are needed. From memory you have a single shot Bergara like mine so switching loads in not the drama that it can be with a mag.
I have a few Speer 100 grain plinker and 110 grain Varminter hollow points plus some of the 125 grain TNT projectiles left and am happy to try a few loads in my Bergara if you like. It would narrow the search a little. You are also welcome to any of my load data, just PM me with what you want.
Regards Grandpamac.