Thread: 3 shot groups are useless!

Gidday Guys - following on from recent discussions/threads - a little more fuel for the fire.

Here are some 3 shot groups from today with the Bergara B14 223 I'm currently playing with. Last time I tried a 10 shot group (in this thread https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....ng-out-104458/ ) it ran at 1.4MOA, not bad but I felt both the load and shooting could be improved. So I changed brass from Hornady to some Lapua that came once fired from the old bulk FMJ stuff that was about years ago. Still not "top notch" brass but better (maybe) than Hornardy! I also added a cheekpiece and bag rider to the rifle and shot from a bipod rather than front rest to see if I could improve the shooting.



I started with a 5 shot group with the same load as before, Hornardy 73s with 23.5 2206H at 58.7mm OAL. Bugger me it seemed to throw a cold bore shot, not something this rifle usually does, could also have been me getting into the new way the rifle feels with cheekpiece and bag rider.

Then we have a seating depth test, this isn't looking for the smallest group, rather I trying to identify a node for point of impact and velocity.

Disregarding the above does anyone see the problem here - the average of the 3 shot groups is 0.76 MOA, quite respectable UNTIl you compare it with the rifle's 10 shot group average - which is closer to 1.5 MOA!

And that's why I call bullshit when people say their rifle shoots "sub moa" (often claiming "its shooting 0.5") on the basis of one or two 3 shot groups.

Too many variables to put any faith in a 3 shot group. I'd prefer multiple 5 shot group or perhaps single 10 rounders. My2c

3 shot groups under MOA are suitable for a hunting load for out 300m on deer sized game. A lot reloaders are happy with that and successfully fill the freezer.
Precision reloading & development is another variable that you are working with and proves that your comment regarding sub MOA claims are correct. Multiple 5 shot groups are required for a true MOA test in my book.
Further to this, you don't see many 22 rimfire 3 shot groups being done!

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I can fire a 3 shot group of say .5moa in my 7rm{3 shots touching} but if 5 shots the group always opens up a bit with barrel and suppressor heating up. But if i fire 3 shots then let barrel and suppressor cool down again i can repeat the same 3 shot group all day long, when the operator is up to it.
So for me and my purposes ie one or two shots at a deer a 3 shot group is just fine.

I think for the average hunting rifle, 3 shot groups are fine, with something massively overbore 5 shot groups get pretty hard on barrel life, also with component shortages these days just seems unessary wastage.
I do agree with the op that if punching paper is what goofs ya off 5 shoots would be a better representation.

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a 3 shot group will be almost infinitely better than a zero shot group!

ive always found my one shot groups to be the best on average . Yep I racoon 5 to 10 round groups at 100 or 200 or further have to show any variables even morer aye.

Originally Posted by 30late

I can fire a 3 shot group of say .5moa in my 7rm{3 shots touching} but if 5 shots the group always opens up a bit with barrel and suppressor heating up. But if i fire 3 shots then let barrel and suppressor cool down again i can repeat the same 3 shot group all day long, when the operator is up to it.
So for me and my purposes ie one or two shots at a deer a 3 shot group is just fine.

Was going to say something similar. I have rifles where 3 shots touching or 5 shots into one ragged hole is normal, after a certain point with those rifles more bullets becomes academic as you can't tell which hole is which.

Originally Posted by No.3

Was going to say something similar. I have rifles where 3 shots touching or 5 shots into one ragged hole is normal, after a certain point with those rifles more bullets becomes academic as you can't tell which hole is which.

I reckon testing a rifles true accuracy is pretty difficult...with big groups you are testing the shooter's concentration and the rifles ability to cope with increasing heat and thermal expansion. On top of that there's always the shooter's basic ability and the quality of the ammo.

I think Thar said it years ago...go back night after night applying your normal cleaning routine etc and shoot a bullet or two at the same target...then that's the setups (including the shooter) hunting accuracy...be bloody impressive to stay under 1 moa but I'm sure some can do it.

I run 3 shot groups & confirm that (good) load by repeating it a couple of times, usually on different day. Very rarely have I seen a 0.5moa load turn into a +1 moa on repeat. It might be 0.7 on repeat, which could easily be operator, good days vs bad days. I don’t like running long strings, especially with bigger/hotter loads. Longer strings, like 5-10 bring a whole new set of variables into play, like heat in barrels & suppressor, and increased risk of fouling build up. The heat mirage off hot suppressor is enough to start distracting me as a shooter. Taking the “accurate “ load and testing at 500-600 yards is pretty telling.

Originally Posted by No.3

Was going to say something similar. I have rifles where 3 shots touching or 5 shots into one ragged hole is normal, after a certain point with those rifles more bullets becomes academic as you can't tell which hole is which.

many thanks No 3 common sense -what are you trying to achieve - many on here seem to be just target shooters or trying loads out - if I zero for hunting I dont waste ammo - hit the right spot maybe one more to check thats it - no more wasted ammo - okay some of you are just target shooting - but dont knock small amounts of ammo to judge group sizes and zero -many of us are confident in our rifles ability - yes neat to get on a range and keep shooting but ammo is dear and sooner spend on petrol - just my two cents worth

For my purpose (I am primarily a hunter and seldom shoot at paper unless sighting in or developing a load) I am more interested in where my first shot goes and whether it is consistent day to day. I have generally found that after the first shot at game, whether your group size is 0.5" or 1.5" makes little difference as you are under pressure to get the next shot away and your shotting ability in the field will be much more affected than your MOA of rifle accuracy. Of course this will depend on the situation but as I said, for me, one shot usually means my hunting day is over (unless shooting pests) so that is the one that I care about. I would rather shoot a 2" group with the first shot going where I aimed than a 0.5" group 2" away from my POA.

The Czech 8x57 mauser I've been using is a repeatable 1-1/2 moa group at a hundy with the ammo I've been using.
Haven't tried anymore since it's been sighted in properly.
Me and a mate who is a very good shot.
Very good bush to 3 hundy.
When I get around to trying out the 243 M70 lightweight again it will be 3 shots only.
Barrel a but thin and the extra 2 just mucks with it enough to screw with my head I reckon

mainly hunting here so I only need to know were the first couple of shots are going to go

Rezeroed my scope after a wee accident.Quiet happen with my final 3 shot group.2 clks up from this, look out deer.