Thread: 3 shot groups are useless!

Originally Posted by Trout

Hi Gimp,didnt think it would take you long to dial in.Yes you will different group positions with different ammo and powder weights,glad you noticed. After 3 shots thru a barrel in 2 minuts,most barrels will get warm so will never shoot in the same spot.So the true POI in hunting terms is the 1st shot.Not after 10 shots on a cooked barrel.

What evidence is there that the first shot is in the same position each time?

What evidence is there that the apparent "opening up" after 3 shots is actually the heat causing a POI shift, vs just random sampling of the actual distribution?

The "hunting weight" 223 I'm using just now isnt especially accurate but it will consistently put a cold bore shot in or near the middle of a 10 shot group with reloads or factory, which makes it and excellent tool in my opinion.

If one looks at a lot of 3 shot groups posted up here, where there is more than 1 group the point of impact shift is pretty apparent = a less accurate rifle than the shoote would like to think!

As long as the deer is down in the 1st shot,who cares.

Hornady superformance 150gr ssts and Hornady superformance 165ssts both have a higher POI fired from the slower Whitetail 165gr sp zero.So they should.

Hey @Tentman, I think I read earlier where your rifle was struggling to shoot MOA 10 shot groups @100 meters, try loading some 62gr hornady SP's with any brass, 25.5gr 2206H and cci 450 primers then do your 10 shot group.

I get .4 of an inch with 3 shots but am not prepared to keep hamering paper and chewing through components for the sake of it however I reckon your riffle should shoot 10 shots under an inch @ 100 meters with them and if not I would chuck your riffle away and buy a Tikka.

The one shot zero on my 257 (above) seemed to work ok under hunting conditions. 2 shots last evening. 2 deer. 271 and 160 yards. Longer shot was spot on - prone with bi pod. Closer a little high but it was off my knees and up hill.
I do get it though that hunting accuracy is different to target accuracy and accept that big tight groups are the acid test. But big groups aren’t really necessary.

I dont disagree about hunting accuracy. I do think people calling their rifles sub MOA on the basis of a three shot group are kidding themselves and are deliberately misleading other shooters if they sell it as so.

As for Tikka's - case in point. Ive had 4 including two 6.5x55s. None of them held zero after 5 shots and groups opened up. I tried shooting FTR with two of them and it was a dismal failure - hint - the FTR bull is quite close to MOA. And you dont have to shoot fast in FTR.

@Trout's Groups got me thinking a little. If your rifle constantly does well. Say 3 shot groups of .75 for examples sake, With the first shot very consistent in its POI. But a larger set of say 5x 3 shot groups moves the center left so that the radius is over all 1.5 moa and .5moa left of where the first shot is landing. What difference would it make? What would you change?

Me. Id change nothing.

Originally Posted by Tentman

I dont disagree about hunting accuracy. I do think people calling their rifles sub MOA on the basis of a three shot group are kidding themselves and are deliberately misleading other shooters if they sell it as so.

As for Tikka's - case in point. Ive had 4 including two 6.5x55s. None of them held zero after 5 shots and groups opened up. I tried shooting FTR with two of them and it was a dismal failure - hint - the FTR bull is quite close to MOA. And you dont have to shoot fast in FTR.

Fair call, horses for courses.

I wouldn't be without mine and love it, the .4 inch group shot with the above load was worked up in 6 shots.

I have since got the same results because a very kind forum member gave me a heap of brass so I wanted to check the load using his brass and yep same result.

Thanks to @Tahr for helping me with my load and I would have shot 20 deer with no escapee's using it.

I have 3 loads that shoot the same poi so swap between them from time to time just to compare damage to animal but I am confident with all 3 loads.

No wind today,nice n calm.My 2 shot groups with clip on,checking elevation n windage at a 100yds.Fired a couple of rds at 200yds.A half moa group just for tentman.I love my tika 308.

Good shooting @Trout, dead deer all day long

Originally Posted by stug

Worth a look.
https://youtu.be/_h4iAiGYbwg?si=sxF8I3rxWH0Lsp7Z

This is well presented, interesting, and substantially more relevant than yet another post about dead deer

Has anyone ever accused you of being fun at a party Gimp?

The whole thread has been enjoyable, interesting and relevant. From Stugs post, too trouts, too the dead deer. Or do we need a no hunting rule in the shooting section?

Hell its even got me thinking I might fire a few more shots next time. for interest sake.

Originally Posted by Tentman

I dont disagree about hunting accuracy. I do think people calling their rifles sub MOA on the basis of a three shot group are kidding themselves and are deliberately misleading other shooters if they sell it as so.

I think that's a big step to say sellers are deliberately misleading when selling "sub moa" rifles, I've sold plenty of them but have always stated 3 shots sub moa or 3 shots under .5" etc, I think at worst it's a misunderstanding about the meaning of the term sub moa and the fact that this is the term used by most rifle manufacturers when giving a "3 shot or 5 shot sub moa garuntee" it is easy to understand how most layperson's would use the same terminology.
I certainly don't feel like I've miss led anyone and if I have that was definitely not the intent, I've certainly had no complaints.
That's my 2 cents on it anyway.
As far as the true definition I can see where your coming from and I understand what your saying, I don't however believe 3 shot groups are useless, I do believe 1 x 3 shot group is no where near enough data to call a load " 3 shots sub moa" more data is needed to confirm consistent poi and group size. That's how I roll.....for hunting. I do not profess to be anymore than a novice hand loader and have no intention of becoming a competition precision shooter.
Full respect to those who do go down that rabbit hole....it's mighty deep and dark

Originally Posted by gimp

This is well presented, interesting, and substantially more relevant than yet another post about dead deer

Ouch